Hi, and welcome to the Rennae Stubbs Tennis podcast. I am Rennae Stubbs. We are in New York City. I am joined by the one and only Caitlin Thompson. Petko is still down in Miami commentator doing a great job. I did like listening to her dulcet tones last night.
Caitlin Thompson: Which match?
Rennae Stubbs: She was calling the Iga Swiatek match last night, So there you go. She's been working all week. I saw her down there when I was down there for a brief moment. I'm back. But anyway, we've got a lot, Caitlin, a lot to talk about. I'm always interested because when you pop into my apartment, you always like, ooh, We'Rennae Stubbs: ve got a lot to talk about today, And I'm always getting pretty excited about that.
Caitlin Thompson: It's a great one because you know, as much as I like talking about match play and technique, which a listener was pointing out to me over the weekend, that not a lot of the shows in the podcast universe like actually have conversations about technique and and I know that that's shocking, but also I forget what a resource are no problem, it's it's I forget that not everybody has that. I forget. I don't forget that you and especially you know with your coaching hat on, but also Andrea, like have such an intimate understanding of the mechanics of tennis. But I guess I it went. It doesn't go without saying that that's a new unique selling point for the show.
Rennae Stubbs: Oh what did they say?
Caitlin Thompson: They were like nobody, They were like, oh other shows.
Rennae Stubbs: Who is this person? Should we give them a little love or do you not want to give them?
Caitlin Thompson: It's my friend Peter Cegg from the UK. He's a devout listener. Hello Peeta, and you know he always has lots of opinions. He and I were texting a lot about the Raducanu-ssaince that's happening because we are both big big Emma Raducanu fans. I'm just trying to push the Raducanu agenda on this podcast and now maybe for good reason, but you know.
Rennae Stubbs: We're still all now that Pete is English.
Caitlin Thompson: Yes, Peter is undoubtedly English, but he also has a lot of very strong opinions and well formed ones. You know from years of tennis spectating, his own rackets pross background and also you know, watching and loving tennis the way we do so anyway, it's such a good selling point, but I don't have that much to contribute those conversations as much as I, you know, enjoy listening to them. This is where I really shane, which is like critiquing governmental structures and getting it more. Do you want to tell people why sticky wicked of it all?
Rennae Stubbs: Like, clearly I can talk tennis until my face turns blue as Petko and I can, but I don't have a journalist's background. I don't have a journalist degree. I am a professional and was a professional tennis player, and so that is my expertise. And you know, although people like to tell me on the old social media's shut up and stick to tennis, I tell them to go f off because I'm also allowed to have an opinion, and you sure do. And it really that The thing that really irks me about when people say that like stick to sports, you know they tell athletes that all the time, is that the intersection of between politics, worldviews and sports is always and always has been a part of the world. Look at the Munich Olympics. I mean, hello, I mean the list is endless.
Caitlin Thompson: Look look at the Berlin Olympics with Jesse Owens winning a sprint race. Look at the Mexico City Olympics.
Rennae Stubbs: Look at the Australian Open. Look at We've had demonstrations, you've had There's been a lot of things. So for people to say that, I mean, and also, I'm a human, I'm a I'm a human being. You also a tax payer in America. In America, I have an American passport. I am a dual citizen, so I get to say what I want as a as a tax paying human being. And so you know, just that, just that, Rather.
Caitlin Thompson: Do you do this to yourself because Twitter is a breeding ground for this.
Rennae Stubbs: I do this to myself, but I'm a tennis player. I like to hit the ball back and forth. But the whole point in me telling you this is asking the questions of because what is your background? Yeah, to be able to have this nuanced conversation we can have.
Caitlin Thompson: I mean, yes, reportage, newspaper and magazine journalism. I like the things that I find interesting generally as a person are narratives, which is why I like talking a little bit more about you know some of the player narratives or some of the tournament narratives, and obviously because I used to be a political reporter, the organizational and infrastructural components of this sport are fascinating to me because of their I would say success in spite of dysfunction. I don't mind dysfunction. I understand it decently well, both on a personal and professional level. But I also think what's amazing about tennis and one thing that we keep coming back to and where our shared love obviously is like really expressed, is this sport is amazing, And from a product perspective, meaning like watching professional tennis, the level of professional tennis and now increasingly the interest and engagement around recreational tennis has not been better in probably my lifetime, but the structure around it has never been more clearly dysfunctional. Whether it has always been functionally this bad or not is irrelevant. But it's the clarity of which one thing is really great and it's being held back by this other thing that's not so great actually gives me a lot of optimism because it's not again coming from a place of complaint. It's just like, oh man, it's already doing pretty well. Imagine how well it could be doing if we had one governing body, if we had one uniform policy, if we had you know, et cetera. So this like allows me to get back to like my favorite hobby horse, which is like the description of an ideal you know.
Rennae Stubbs: Organizational structure, professional tennis.
Caitlin Thompson: Well, you know, much like what inspired me to cover politics for so long was not to talk about who was winning each debate, or each polling cycle, or each state in early you know caucusing and early voting, but rather like who is addressing the themes of the America in saki right now? What is this giving us a chance to talk about and creating our own iodeal world, which you know, just better a fracture political landscape. Most of us can agree that people should have healthcare, education, you know, things like that, and so it allows me to kind of thematically get at things that are really like with the altitude in which I like it, which is like from upon high.
Rennae Stubbs: Okay, So you know, one of the reasons we're bringing this up, of course, is just this entire PTPA lawsuit with the Atpm WTA, etc. I Mean, they're going after everybody.
Caitlin Thompson: IATA and ITF which, setting the Slams aside, that's everybody.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, that's everybody they don't want to touch, which is interesting to me. So I want you to get into the nuances more because you've really researched this a little bit, maybe even more than me. But the bottom line is, I think the thing that cracks me up in this is that really the entities to go after more from the player standpoint as far as getting money more money is the Grand Slams. The Grand Slams are the ones that are really taking advantage of the players. They're the ones that have, without a doubt, you know, with the revenue share, are without question not giving the players enough. Now, if you think about it, I'm going to talk about it in Layman's terms here, like basically, the winner of the of a Grand Slam is getting somewhere between three million and crow million dollars four brillion.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, So, which is a nice sized check until you learn it's a giant tournament.
Rennae Stubbs: Is it's a great check. But when you're talking about the best players in the world playing seven matches, okay, seven matches over two more than two weeks. Now every Grand Slam is going to fifteen days, it's like, if you think about a Novak Djokovic, Let's say back in the day, Roger Federer, Serena, you know, the all time greats, if they played seven nights of exhibitions, they would be making at least seven million dollars. They're getting paid a million dollars an exhibition if they go to South America, if they go to Mexico, if if they go to South Africa, if they go to Australia, if they go they are getting paid a million dollars to go and play an exhibition. So my whole thing is you when you think about that for a two week event, the time that they're giving out, the money that those Grand Slams are making, that is not enough money.
Caitlin Thompson: For them the way that I would put it, not to correct you, because I think that's absolutely correct. You're talking about what the market will bear in what they could get on the open market. I don't know that that is going to elicit a lot of understanding or sympathy because I hear that and I still think, oh, okay, So they're getting six hundred thousand dollars per match, Like that's more than most Americans will earn in the next decade. The better way to understand it is Wimbledon makes a little under five hundred million dollars a year. Wimbledon is paying out let's call it, twenty thirty million for all the events, maybe a little more. That's the that's the issue. It's less than ten percent of what they're earning. Yeah, granted, Wimbledon spends a lot on marketing, Wimbledon spends a lot of an expansion, Wimbledon spends a lot on hospitality. There's a whole literal city that is dedicated to making this specifically the biggest earning Grand Slam. But from a proportion perspective, if you look at any other league or any other sport, the amount that the ownership group versus the amount that the labor group, which is in this case the players get is proportionally much much closer. So that is actually really the issue. It's a proportion deal. They're earning so much more than the players in so many fantastic ways, and they're not sharing it really with the players. So it's not to your exact correct point, it's not exactly the tours that are responsible for a lot of the issues that the players face. That said, to bring everybody back the PTPA, which is the non-governmental non-union but players sort of advocacy group started by Novak Djokovic. Vasek Pospocil was an early supporter of it, and some other players through the years have sort of gotten onto it. Has now sued wtaatp IATA and IF and they've sued them for a number of different things, non competition, they've sued them for dangerous working conditions. They've sued them for a lack of transparency when a the deal making and you know, at first blush, you were like, okay, well, this makes sense that they are advocating, which is what they're meant to do for the players to have a better outcome on the tour. These players play eleven months a year. They're not let in on the negotiating tail when it comes to salaries, and they don't have full discretion over the way that they're allowed to sort of conduct business, especially as freelancers, which is essentially what they are. So we can go into like the nuts and bolts of the lawsuit in reading about it. However, the actual nuts and bolts of what they're suing over is yes, So on one hand, and again we'll unpack some of the stuff individually, But is it right to go after the tours? Sure, you could argue that they haven't done a good enough job marketing in the sport. They certainly haven't done a good enough job protecting the players, advocating for them, making sure that the season doesn't injure them and go on too long. What they actually filed in court is bizarre. It doesn't really actually make any sense, and it contradicts itself because in one hand it will say that there's you know, sort of no competition. On the other hand, it will say that they are allowed to play an exhibition. So which one is it? Like the fact that and I'm sort of glassing high level over this, but like the fact that Novak Djokovic, who himself started the PTPA and has been a very vocal and contributed to his own money and has obviously been a very vocal advocate advocate of what the pgpa's mission is, is not himself a plaintiff in the lawsuit.
Rennae Stubbs: Ye, it's here that's a complete strategy on his standpoint that he doesn't want to muddy the waters again. But also at the same time, I'm saying that completely as like, you know, as somebody asking a layman question, but also at the same time that looks terrible.
Caitlin Thompson: It's not a great look. And if you're gonna have players involved...
Rennae Stubbs: You better have the greatest of all time a part of your list.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, like the fact that Carlos Alcaraz, which I'm not saying Carlos Alcaraz is the greatest of all time, but like, certainly in terms of like public opinion and dynamism.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, in the next ten to fifteen years of the tour, it's gonna be Alcoraz and Sinner presumably.
Caitlin Thompson: You know. The slice of players that are putting their name on this thing is pretty small, and it's pretty specific, like and it kind of all feels like there it's fueled by personal grievances like Nicole Melichar-Martinez, great doubles player. I understand she's been shafted by like, you know, selection committees for team competitions because they don't value doubles players sometimes, but like that's bullshit. It's also like, is this a personal grievance against the tours or is this like part of a larger strategic Like is is Sorana Cirstea the voice of a nation? Like we all love Opelka because he's a you know, he likes to be contrarian. Nick Kyrios is like, what, I don't know that I would want to watch a tour up with these players, much less support their last suit against the other. It's like, oh, man, you see somebody taking a wide open shot, but it's like totally the wrong shot. You're like, no, somebody should suit the yes, tennis, yes, but for this in this way, when you.
Rennae Stubbs: Have a shot, when you it'd be like saying, who are you going to have make that free throw for you in the biggest of competitions. Is it going to be Shaquille O'Neill, sure or Michael Jordan? Right? Yeah, you know, I'm pretty sure I know who I'm having to take that foul shot. So I think the whole point, you know, in this, Caitlin, is you're saying that, Okay, sure, you're trying to make a difference. You're trying to make quote unquote more money for the players, which is all good and well, but you cannot make it in the way that you're doing because you don't have the support of the right people. Be the people that you have on this on this complaint are either retired or not playing at a high level, or have had incidences in the past that have not voted too well in the public opinion. A lot of these guys are also anti-vaxxers, undermined their credibility in a way. Yeah, if you get the most popular, well liked diplomatic players on tour to all of a sudden say like, hey, we are all united in this. This is something that needs to change.
Caitlin Thompson: It's not a great look. And I don't that's even setting Novak side. It's just you know, in the years that now the PTPA has been functional, you know, we've seen some photo shoots, We've seen them have some parties, they've released some interesting stats complaining about the tennis ecosystem, and it's hard to disagree, like, yes, the season's too long, Yes, profit sharing should be better, Yes, you know, there should be transparency, if you know. One of the interesting tidbits that I learned from the lawsuit was a very credible claim that the PTPA is making that Larry Ellison wanted to personally increase prize money at the tournament. He owns Indian Wells and was forbidden to doing so because of the tours mandatory sort of paying tiers, which like I can actually see sort of both sides of that. But what an interesting turn of events that, like, you know, they're some could call that artificially decreasing prices. Some might argue like, no, there's like a labor standard for pay tiers, much like you would have in government or like you know, a c suite where it's like, no, you actually can't exceed this. Otherwise it creates you know, disparate in the field, and nobody's going to ever go to Cincinnati again. So like part of it is is then.
Rennae Stubbs: It's just a big fight between the billionaires.
Caitlin Thompson: Exactly, which you know we're probably heading that way.
Rennae Stubbs: I mean, yeah, there are positives and negatives towards it. I mean, when you've got a Ben Navarro, when you've got you know, these types of you know, Larry Ellison, the Ari Emmanuels now trying to get in the mix of things. When you've got guys like this, you are inflating and helping in some way players make more money.
Caitlin Thompson: You're also distorting the market in a way that I think the market is unsustainable for other tournaments. And is unsustainable maybe for the tours, but I think all of this indicates like a change is coming. There was some really interesting reporting. I want to shout out Matthew Futterman from The New York Times, who has essentially been like a scoop machine. This is probably the only like real working journalist in the media center who is just inside the And we have been critical in the both of The New York Times and also of some of the reportage that has come out of it. But for me, it's like this guy is consistently breaking news. Not only did he have the inside scoop on a lot of the PTPA, lawsuit but he exclusively reported that during like days after the the tours themselves, the ATP and WTA sent another notice to the Grand Slams asking them to come to the negotiating table because it's so clear that that is a dysfunctional relationship that doesn't really that doesn't really benefit at the great detriment of both fans and players, and so part of me just kind of wonders, like, you know, and then that speaks to the lawsuit. Is John Wertheim pointed out in his latest column, like how can the tours both be a cartel, meaning like they have unilateral monopolistic control, but yet they're trying to get the ws Slams for Slams to actually like come to the negotiating table and talk to them, So like why did the PTA right, why didn't the PTPA? And also if it's a cartel, they shouldn't have trouble getting the Grand Slams to the table. There's so many permutations of this, like why didn't the PTPA sue the Slams? Why didn't why didn't the PTPA get a better body of players frankly and make a more coherent lawsuit and go after you know, the actual power bodies of the sport, which is pretty clear it's not the tours, you know. And the other thing that I think about the tours, which is actually why I kind of think maybe they shouldn't exist, is they are so first of all, they don't have their own audiences. What the what the slams have done a great job, and why they would argue that they don't deserve to share the profits profits with the players in a real meaningful way is because they're the ones who have all the audience. They're the ones who have all the following... they're the ones who have all the value.
Rennae Stubbs: If I get asked if I'm going to go to Madrid, they say, I'm gone. Where would you go? Wimbledon.
Caitlin Thompson: And now increasingly the other tournaments are trying to now make up for lost time because they realized that the Slams have kind of monopolized the imagination and also certainly the media rates. You know, ESPN's not bidding after going in a bidding word against Rome, as good of a tournament, as prestigious as a tournament as a Cincinnati Masters or Cincinnati or Torino.
Rennae Stubbs: They gave up Indian Wells.
Caitlin Thompson: Right because they realize, like, oh, actually, the center of gravity for this sport. I would argue to its detriment, but it certainly is true lies with the Slams. And so I think I am hearing that.
Rennae Stubbs: TNT Warner might be pursuing a little bit more than what they just have now with the French Open. So that would be certainly helpful because we all know that again one of the reasons why the Grand Slams hold so much power is yes, they have captured the audience, They have captured the imagination of tennis fans, they know about the Australian Open, it's a trip to go to. They know about the US Open, they know about Wimbledon and about the French Open. Is that money that they have is because of the television rights from the ESPN, from TNT, from Channel Nine and Australia like so a lot of the money that's that the Grand Slams are making is from television rights. So that that is one thing that has kind of hurt is that yes, it's on tennis channel. Every event is basically on tennis channel, but is that a big enough audience And you would argue that it's probably not. And that's why also the to US aren't reaping the benefits of the money coming in from television rights because it's on it's on a cable network that not a lot of people want to that either get or pay for, and including people in Europe and people in Australia. Got people and how do I watch tennis? And they have no idea. So that's part of as well, and that's something that the tours I think could work on, whether it be with YouTube or whoever, to be able to get it on and I know it's through YouTube with tennis channel as on there as well if you pay for it. But still it's it's it's it's hard to get an audience that are watching terms.
Caitlin Thompson: If I'm a rights holder, if I'm a rights buyer, and I say I want to broadcast tennis, what are what are my options? What are my options? And I either go out and buy the four biggest audiences which are attached to the Slams, or I try to cobble together a rights negotiation with a bunch of different fiefdoms. And it's the same problem it is in all ways, right, Like you know, nobody's buying the Rome merch, but people are buying the Roland Garros merch. There's no equity, and you know it's I went to the WTA event in Indian Wells, you went to the one in Miami. The try it's really you know, Ava Duvernay directing their new commercial; the reband is very cool. But also I wonder, like what where is the equity in the WTA? What do they actually own? They own one tournament at the end of the year finals, What is the actual equity in the agency? What do they own that's their own thing?
Rennae Stubbs: Well, they own the weeks on the tours.
Caitlin Thompson: And they own, you know, the right to represent the players at the moment, and they own their tour ending finals, and in the case of ATP, they own you know, the next gen finals and Jeddah and the ATP finals and the Next Gen that has been in Torino, the same with IP.
Rennae Stubbs: So you know, it is a question of the PTPA if they really want to make a difference, they have to garner more support from the from the larger ATP and WTA players first of all, for sure, that's for the number one thing. If you don't have the players support, if you don't know, if you don't have a Jack Draper who gets asked this question, he goes, I don't have any idea what they do. I don't know what you're talking about. La la la la la. I mean he was just like even Novak.
Caitlin Thompson: Djokovic's like, hey, why's your name not on the lawsuit of the group that you started? And he was like, I don't agree with everything that's in the lawsuit.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, So it's like, if you're going to go and do this lawsuit, I think that, Look, I think there's an opportunity here, a big opportunity here. You think about like for example, what Live Golf did right, what Greg Norman did, Greg a lot of shit right. And he's been a bit of a lightning bowl, lightning rod with the PGA. He fought against the PGA for a long time. He felt like there was a little bit of the same of what's happening now that they were taking advantage of the players and they weren't paying them enough, YadA YadA, YadA, all the things right. So he sort of saw an opportunity with this with the Saudi money clearly to have a rival tour, and he went out and took a lot of bows and arrows and he got that done. Now, is it whitewashing sports in a way? In golf, the one of the biggest sports in the world. Absolutely, they went and got the Saudi money, they put a rival to her on and they got hundreds of They got many many players from the PGA tour, some of the biggest ones in the world to go and play that and get paid one hundred and two hundred million dollars to go and do it. So of course players are going to go and sign that deal and go and do it because they now have generational wealth for their family, forever and ever and ever. Now you can say, well that was shitty, the Rory McElroy's and Tiger Woods going out, I'm not going to the Saudis. Well sorry, you guys, you have hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank. Some of these other golfers that maybe saw an opportunity to have fifty million dollars in the bank, knowing that they were never going to have that type of money. Of course they're going to jump ship. So there was an opportunity there. And now all of a sudden, you see two years later guests who's getting in bed to other live and the PGA tour. So, you know, whatever you want to say about Greg in that situation, he managed to figure out a way to get these tours to actually talk to each other. Now he's been pushed out, and Rory and Tiger and another guys like you know, we're the men. Now we've got well not really. What you have to have is you have to have somebody come in and maybe make a big difference. But the people at the PTPA and the people leading them are not the people to do that, and they're not doing a good job because this is a perfect example of as you said, when you walked in and he's like, I like the idea, but what the fuck is not a good strategy?
Caitlin Thompson: Doesn't seem hard. First of all, suing anybody in any context is super easy. Filing a lawsuit is sadly very easy, super common. Yeah, and because the barrier to entry is super low, you don't even have to country, especially in America, which is where this lawsuit has been filed in the years of their existence. Getting not only more players, as you say, which is what Greg Norman did, which is getting the popular.
Rennae Stubbs: He got a lot of really big players.
Caitlin Thompson: And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think about the players, It doesn't matter what you think about the amount of money if you have the will of the players, the players are the asset here. That's the actual value.
Rennae Stubbs: Of the sport.
Caitlin Thompson: It's not the Wimbledon shirts and the brand and the TV rights because if there's nothing to air, then those TV rights are worthless. If there's no you know, player on the on the court, you're not going to Wimbledon to buy the shirt, right And so for me, the players in doing this have kind of fired a gun half cocked where it's like, Okay, you know that you guys are the most valuable part, so you need to get everyone unified, or at least a huge, huge majority of you, and then the other thing. And I don't think that this is particularly hard because we've had conversations about you know, Billy Jean King doing this and helping other leagues when they've been organizing and starting. You know, there are so many examples now, you know, one of one of our listeners, a guy called Mark Shapiro, who lives in California, was talking to me about like, hey, if you've been following what boxing has done, they got Saudi money. Again, however you feel about that. What they did was they got Saudi money, They created a meaningful amount of competitions that counted towards something else. They created a spectacle, they marketed it, They got all the best boxers, and now boxing has been revitalized. Boxing is a sport I don't care about. I don't watch, I never will, and all of it is not appealing to me. That said, from a structural perspective, if you're the PTPA and you say, hey, look, we've spent all this time getting all the players on the same page, how do we how we put a plan together? So we're going to actually eschew the tours. We'll just deal right with the Grand Slams. And here's our plan. And when you ask them, they don't really have one.
Rennae Stubbs: And so again, but Caitlin, what a missed opportunity one of the reasons for this, and I really and I want no player to take offense to this. But we're not the smartest. Tennis players are not super educated. They come onto the tours at seventeen, sixteen, eighteen whatever. They haven't gone to school, they haven't got a college. They haven't studied finance, they haven't studied economics, they haven't studied you know whatever. They need to study business acumens at all. We're talking about tennis players that are looking at each other going, yeah, we want this and we want that, and they're easily led in certain ways. Well, and I want smart conversations and people that represent the players, that actually have the players' perspectives and have the players, you know, their interests at the main heart of it. And I think those are the people that need to be talking about for the players, you know, not the players. Maybe that, but the agents are a problem, Caitlin, This is again another this is why people don't invest in tennis because it is so muddied.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, well, I think, just to follow up on your point, I think maybe as educated or not as the players are a lot of them smelled a stinker and stayed far away from this.
Rennae Stubbs: Yes, it's my point.
Caitlin Thompson: The PTPA has been trying very hard to recruit and they have not.
Rennae Stubbs: They have not recruited anyone.
Caitlin Thompson: They have not succeeded, no, based on their names, on that.
Rennae Stubbs: And that's that's the concern I have in just in terms of everything, is that we are not talking about people that are involved in this that either speak really well to the to the actual problems. And the fact that they're not even involved and haven't involved the Grand Slams, to me is the biggest tell. Yeah.
Caitlin Thompson: If I'm the Tours, I get why they send a note to the Grand Slams. What the Tours should actually do is say, hey, look we said we were in a union before, but we actually are. We control labor, negotiate with us Slams or we'll have a work stoppage.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah.
Caitlin Thompson: I mean, that's how you get the players on board, and that's how you get, you know, some movement, So maybe that's what needs to happen. But I was hoping the PTPA would turn out to be more real, and I am sort of confused.
Rennae Stubbs: And well, to be continued, I guess to be continued, I mean it's going to be continued into nothing and into oblivion. But anyway, oh listen, enough with that, enough with the debacle of the PTPA and ATP and WTA, Let's get to the Miami Open, where a lot has happened. Kate love it. I mean, can we talk about the carnage. First of all, everyone that did well in Indian Wells crapped out completely in Miami. Just done. And I can give you two reasons for that, complete exhaustion, which is why it is a fucking terrible idea to have back to back tier ones. Sorry it is back to back one thousands is a terrible idea. It also dilutes the product. But whatever, what do I know, And especially going from Indian Wells to Miami, conditions are completely different. The court was a little faster in Miami. The balls are different. It was Wilson balls in Innie Wells. It is dunelop balls in Miami. You have humidity and different conditions. It was quite cool in Miami. Actually it was like days where they were cool, days where it was hot and humid more so a lot more than Indian Wales. And then India Wells is dry and desert conditions. So that's why it's really hard to win the double. It's hard to do the Sunshine Double because it is such different conditions. I always joke about just ask Lindsay Davenport, who won like Indian was like five or six times and could never win Miami. And so we saw that at its peak again at this tournament. It's really hard to go back to back.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, and I think for me too, the tapes of players we were getting who won and went deep in Indian Wells were some new faces. There was a lot of new energy. I mean, sure you had your egos, who's used to going deep in a tournament?
Rennae Stubbs: Yes, and she I think just broke a record. I don't know what it was, yesterday was like twenty one or I'm sure somebody will tell me on the socials, but it was a certain amount of consecutive quarterfinals at W two one thousand.
Caitlin Thompson: Records like this are staggering, they don't get a lot of shine, but actually that that's to me day in, weekend, week out, for sure results.
Rennae Stubbs: That is somebody who turns up to every big tournament every single time and is there to win it, and doesn't mean she's gonna win it, but she will be in that last section of the draw every single time at the biggest tournaments. And that's remarkable. So it's also one people say, oh, how can she be ranked there and why is she one or two in the world. It's like, because she's consistently fucking good every time and it doesn't matter.
Caitlin Thompson: What, regardless of conditions, regardless of regardless of service. So yeah, I wasn't terribly surprised that, you know, outside of a few names, there are you know a lot of folks who didn't make it very far on the draw. I mean, I think one of the stats was the vast majority of folks who went deep in near was lost in the first round yea Miami. You know, again, not a surprise. But I think for me, the storylines that I'm following that are really really interested in are obviously Joao Fonseca, who just lost in a in a pretty big battle. He brought out all the Brazilians.
Rennae Stubbs: Oh my god, he was the atmosphere last night with Alex De Minaur was arguably the best crowd I've ever heard. I mean, it was incredible love that. I mean, you always want to have a Grand Slam in South America. I know this. You want to take away the Oceania and you want to put it in South America. Well, Caitlin, I'm here to tell you we have a Grand Slam in South America. It's called Miami because there are so many Brazilians, Ecuadorians, Argentinians, I mean, you name it from the from the Southern American part of this world that come to Miami or live in Miami now that are at that tournament. It's It's always been unbelievable anytime I played to South American and at the Miami Open and I'm like, oh fuck, this is going to be a nightmare. And it was, and Alex De Minaur handled it. Because the thing that people don't realize about Alex De Minaur is put him in an environment like that. It's like Davis Cup and he lives for that shit. I love when he won to and he just stood there and he looked over at his box and he just went fun, you know, because he speaks fluent.
Caitlin Thompson: He speaks fluently.
Rennae Stubbs: And I thought it was great and Joao Fonseca is so fun to watch.
Caitlin Thompson: I love matches like that because it sort of illustrates I think the possibilities of tennis, not in in terms of like sports stories and up and coming players, but just this idea that you know, somebody who consistently does well, a lot of grand slams, who's kind of always in the conversation but never quite on the tip of your tongue, Alex De Minaur, you know.
Rennae Stubbs: Because he keeps running with Sinner like this is his best opportunity to win a title because Jannik is not here.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, do you think that that is emerging as a possibility for sure because of who's left in the draft.
Rennae Stubbs: Absolutely, there's no doubt that Alex De Minaur is not not the player to beat in this tournament, but he's certainly there and beating Fonseca last night in that environment is going to give him so much, like, you know, just confidence in his ability to be able to handle, you know, one of the best players in the world right now, certainly one of the best young talents in the world, but he has the ability to win a tour.
Caitlin Thompson: There's a bunch of really interesting names, like a lot of whom I think could win it. Zverev can win it or through Fils he's beaten Zverev, they played a pretty memorable in a match in the fall. It's nice to see Seb Korda back in good form and healthy. He's got Gael Fonseca who's like somehow turning back time. I mean, he's just so electric.
Rennae Stubbs: This is also like what the feast beat said in him wells, so it could be a little of because Seb is from he is from Florida, so this and conditions that he really likes. It's a little bit quicker Monfils prefers that little bit slower conditions that he was getting in Indians Wells, so I think that Seb might get a little revenge on Gael today.
Caitlin Thompson: But I just think it's a great I mean, De Minaur's still in it. What a nice thing it is to see him beating catch enough, Like, I just I like the fact there's just a bunch of different storylines that are exciting.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, I'm personally we haven't talked about clearly as Novak and him sort of getting through the draw pretty comfortably. Mussetti he plays today, that'll be interesting. Mussetti's obviously had a great twelve months, soho has the confidence to go out there and beat someone like Novak? But yeah, I mean Berrettini as well playing terrific and Alex De Minaur who he has next. Taylor Fritz is somebody that we haven't talked about, who did not do well in Indian Wales, who really wants to do well on American style, and this is a tournament clearly that is good for him. He goes up against lucky loser Neil Walton from so Adam, so we'll see how well Taylor does. So you would think that Taylor has a really good shot as well. Francis Tiafoe again loses. He loses to Arthur Fils. I mean, I just don't know what's going on with with with Francis. He's sort of lost his mojo a little bit. I mean it was a good three set.
Caitlin Thompson: Match, but yeah, what do you think is going on?
Rennae Stubbs: I don't know. I you know, maybe he's peaked. I think he peaked like he did a couple of years ago at the US Open. I think that, Look, he doesn't have a lot of weapons, and at some point you kind of do plateau at a certain place. I think he's probably made enough for money to be super comfortable in the rest of his life. Is that a determining factor of pushing him to the toughest of toughest of moments, Maybe, you know, sign a big, big contract thanks to Josh Smoller, he's a terrific agent with Lulu Lemon, So you know, I don't know, I think is that part of it? Maybe for me?
Caitlin Thompson: I love Tiaofe. He's really fun. But also he's never been top ten material. To me, his game just isn't good.
Rennae Stubbs: No, he's dynamic, and you know, he's got a great backhand and he's I mean he is he does.
Caitlin Thompson: Everything is okay. No, his technique is totally busted on both sides.
Rennae Stubbs: His backhand is ok.
Caitlin Thompson: He shovels the backhand, and he's got a forehand that's all over Jesus do. I love the guy absolutely and I'd fight for him to the death. But like to me, the fact that he made it into the top ten was indicative of like playing above his paygrade frankly, and like some other people kind of fallen off like you. In all things being equal, Frances Tiafoe should not be in the top ten as much as I like.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, he won't be.
Caitlin Thompson: By the end of the and he definitely won't be headed back anyway. But I think for me, the one I'm watching the women.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, let's get to the women. Oh my god, what a great tournament, we've had some upsets. I think the big I think the big storyline, Well, there's lots, so let let me start with the top half of the drawer. Obviously, Sabalenka is just crushing everyone left and right. How to you know, six four to six four match against Daniel Collins, defending champion. But Sabalenka is crushing everyone in this tournament. And no surprise, your buddy Qinwen has a bit of a comeback here.
Caitlin Thompson: She likes the humid conditions there.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, I mean she has been comfortably winning in straight sets through her tournament.
Caitlin Thompson: I have to say I don't like her.
Rennae Stubbs: Adds, I do not like her Sabalenka. I think Sabalenka is going to beat her in straight sets as well.
Caitlin Thompson: I'm just more looking can Qinwen make more progress based on the last time she last to Sabalenka in straight sets, like, maybe could she get a set?
Rennae Stubbs: That's what I'm looking for. No, I don't think, I don't think, But that's what Somebody else who was a little bit surprised that they ended up going out yesterday was Coco Gauff She was playing really well, very comfortable, couple of wins, an O and O match against Kenin which was crazy, and you know, Kenin beat confit of her in the first round, and then Maria Sakkari. She took care of her comfortably, but Maria has been struggling over the last couple of years. But to lose to Magna Linette, I mean, Linette is this type of player that when she gets hot, she's really quite a good player. I mean, she reached a semi final of a Grand Slam at one time. But to beat Coco Gauff four and four in Florida with tons of support doesn't make any sense. It's just Coco is just yeah, there's a lot missing there, and a lot of it just comes down to again, the same stuff, the double folding, the forehand. It's just like, at some point you have to go and break that down a little bit and get some confidence on it. Look, I'm not too worried about her, because I think when she gets on the clay she plays even better.
Caitlin Thompson: She's gonna deal.
Rennae Stubbs: I don't care who you are, your confidence has to suffer. And she has not gotten to a latter part of a tournament in a long time. And when you're talking about the consistency of an Iga Swiatek and a Sabalenka, Coco's not having that. And so she has really dropped out of that top tier five level yep. And losing to Magda Linette is not a good loss at the Miami Open for her. Paolini also has had a tough year. I like she has gotten through incidents half matches, and that went against Osaka yesterday was big time because she lost the first set. You know, Paolini beat you know, got the retirement against Ons Jabeur sending out our love to Ons. You know, she just can't crack it with the injuries so over the last couple of years, and you just wonder how much that's going to really affect her career. To be honest, I think she wants to have a family. Like, at some point you start going, how much fucking rehab do I have to do to get back on too? It's going to be.
Caitlin Thompson: Another year, thankfully. It sounds like from Ons' camp it's a slate muscle tweak, so she'll probably be on clay before too long. I'm sure she won't be going back to Charleston where she has won the tournament before, but like, hopefully we'll it's a bummer for the tournament, which is a bummer for the tournament because she's such a fun so personality.
Rennae Stubbs: But Paolini getting through that match against Osaka—Osaka was looking pretty good, like everyone's like, oh, here we go, this is going to be the tournament that gets you back on the map, and then bam. She goes out to Paolini who just doggedly, determinedly got through that match. Yes today, I mean it was awesome.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I agree. I was really happy because I don't think Paolini played that well, no, but she just you know, those sort of defining but yeah, I actually think those are more important matches because anybody can win when you're playing well and feeling great and feeling confident when you get through something, especially against somebody who's all of a sudden kind of found her form, and you gut it out and you just run it down and you put it back and play. That actually, to me is a character building when that I love from Paolini for sure, and.
Rennae Stubbs: For Paolini to to know that you're playing Magda Linette instead of Naomi Osaka and the next match has to make you feel No, I'm not saying that Lynette is not a good player.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, like the fact that you're sorry and he doesn't have to go and against Coca Gauff.
Rennae Stubbs: That's what That's what I meant. Sorry, instead of playing Coco, who is going to have the crowd and you know, you just know what she's capable of doing, instead you're playing Magda Linette, that's a whole different.
Caitlin Thompson: Story, for sure.
Rennae Stubbs: It's just mentally.
Caitlin Thompson: I like the Paula Badusa looked pretty good. She obviously had like her share of injuries. Just yeah, listen, I'm a I'm a Raducanu fan.
Rennae Stubbs: Listen. I was about to say, let's get to the bottom half of the drawer. Because Emma Raducanu has turned has she turned her career around with that win against Emma Navarro agreed and there super high level no doubt that that has made her turn her possibly turn her career around. And I you know, everyone's going to hyperbole and all the shit. You don't understand. You don't understand what it takes to gut through a match like that, because in all sense of the word defeat, she should have lost that match. Now she should have won it, and then Emma looked like she should have won it. And it was just one of those matches that went back and forth and Emma Navarro, you know, I think I put out on Twitter, you know, beware Emma Navarro down a set, down a break, and someone serving for the match, because that's when she's come back and won so many matches this year. So I thought that was going to happen. But Emma stepped up. That Radukanu stepped up in that match more than I've ever seen her step up since she won the US Open. She went for it. She was aggressive. The only time she wasn't really aggressive was when she served for the match at five to three. She pulled back a little bit. And you know, it's interesting. I was texting with Jill Smoller during the match, and I was like wow. I was like, you know, because Jill is representing her and helping her out a little bit, and I was like, you know, if Emma stays, if Radukanu wins this match, she has to say aggressive. And she did that and so I think that gave her so much confidence. She obviously wins the next match with a retirement, but.
Caitlin Thompson: Was yeah, it was a one way traffic.
Rennae Stubbs: And then to beat Anissimova, who took out Andreeva the night before. Can we just talk about Mirra. There was no doubt that she hit the wall in that match.
Caitlin Thompson: You could see it. Actually, she just looked from one point to the next how spent she was.
Rennae Stubbs: I know that she was not feeling well before the match, and so she went on the court maybe a little bit not feeling good. Hence the just her attitude had. Having the trainer come out at two to one in the first set is highly unusual. Agree, but you know, I'll give a credit as a seventeen year old. She hung in there when she could have given it up, especially after losing the first set. She hung in there and looked like she was going to win the match. And then Anissimova just turned it around and third set and started hitting winners all over the place. But Mirra certainly showed her age and the fact that she hit the wall and mentally acted like Mirra Andreeva from two years ago. I mean, there was mum left the box. Conchi had lost all control of her. It was just like, fuck everybody, I hate everything, I hate being out here.
Caitlin Thompson: And then Anissamova during the service game called for the trainer okay, so I want to get to that.
Rennae Stubbs: So the blister. If anyone follows Amanda Anissimova on Instagram, you would have seen and a lot of people reposted the blister on her finger. That was a really bad blister.
Caitlin Thompson: It looked like a gap, chunk of her finger.
Rennae Stubbs: It was horrible. Now, I don't know if any of you have played tennis, certainly haven't played it professionally, and knowing you don't know a bad guest, Yeah, let's let's hope. But a blister that size on your finger fucking kills when you're trying to hit the ball. Now, she asked for the trainer, right, she asked for the trainer on the next changeover, so to make sure because you have to let the physios know because they're in the physio room. They're in the locker room. They're not sitting by the court unless it's the final. They're not sitting by the court because there's only so many physios and they're doing a tremendous amount of work and labor in the rooms, in the locker rooms at the time of matches. So like the amount of times I've been having a physio wall get to the point, get the point, no, because it's as important. So if you're in the locker room and you've got four physios in there and there's seven players wanting treatment, you're in a line, right, So a physio will be working on you, and then a call will come over the radio trainer needed on center court and they have to stop the treatment, grab their bags and run out to the court. So Amanda, let the umpire know, please make sure the physios out here on the next changeover, okay, So that gives them time to get out there, so you're not waiting for them. So and of course she's up three to one in the third, so she doesn't want to stop her momentum. And then I'll give a credit. It was she was down or upper game point. I can't remember. She lost some point to go to juice. She knew immediately from hitting that ball. Fucking hell, I cannot hit the ball anymore. And this is a really important game for me. So it is within the rules that if it's an acute injury. For example, if someone sprains her ankle or does at knee or falls and you know, breaks their finger or something, that's an acute injury. So the phissia will come out and assess if it's an acute injury. Now, if you said, oh, I feel a bit of a pain in my knee, they might do an assessment, let's say of an ACL tear or a tear and say, oh, yeah, you've to on your ACL or you know, you can keep playing or it's up to you, right, So the physio makes this assessment. If it's a cute now looking at that finger, that's a cute. That's I cannot hit the tennis ball now without being in a tremendous amount of pain, which Anissa overplayed, I believe three points after asking for the physio. Now, she knew going into that there was going to be juice add and it could go juice add juice add juice, add like ten more times. Meanwhile, the finger's getting worse. She can't hit the ball, so she decided to call the trainer. Now a lot of people are pat to stab there because that's at allowed in the rules.
Caitlin Thompson: We didn't set this up. She called the trainer in between first and second serves. That's why this was controversial. Not only did it happen in the middle of a service game, but she called it in the middle of a service motion. I agree with you completely that it's within the rules and if you can't swing a racquet without screaming pain. But watching the match, it was in between first and second serves.
Rennae Stubbs: I don't remember that.
Caitlin Thompson: I'm Mira Andreeva.
Rennae Stubbs: I don't remember that. And because of that, I remember walking up to the chair and saying, can I get the physio and the again, I'm not doing that partic for one, She's like for blister for my finger or whatever, and she said, what the empire is? Like, what do I need to and this has happened to me before. It's like, if I asked for the fucking trainer, just call the trainer. You don't need to ask me what my injury is because I don't want my opponent to know what my injury is.
Caitlin Thompson: On the other hand, there are players who abuse it to such a degree that you can't give everyone the bed of the doubt. No, well that's the lake Novak is getting a manicure on his toes half the time when you know, like famously, and everyone's like, is this guy injured? Is this a blisters? Is it thing?
Rennae Stubbs: Well, there's a lot. It's not just throw Novak under the bus. This has been a lot of players that have down a lot of shitty things. I don't think Amanda has that. From what I know, Amanda does.
Caitlin Thompson: Not have that agreed agreed and I'm not bringing us around a texture. I'm bringing I'm bringing this up to explain why so many people were upset about it, because I think the way you explained it sounded like, of course, a logical person would allow Amanda Anissimova to address a well and also Caitlin shrieking paint injury. But the reason it was controversial is because people maybe don't understand the rules of the context about how long it takes to get to the court, or the fact that she is allowed to do it in the middle of play if it is an acute injury, which I think it was, so I'm not I'm not trying to pile on Mara won the game.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, okay, true, But actually the.
Caitlin Thompson: Reason I brought this up is because Mira Andreva, under normal circumstances, is cool as a cucumber, as she's been and how well coached she is in the last year, certainly since the beginning of the year, doesn't care about that. Mirra Andreeva, who hits a wall, who can't control herself anymore, is freaking out and this is becomes the thing that is like the reason that she loses the match. Yeah, I mean, and I think that's the difference between somebody and command of their emotions and then themselves with their coaches voice in their head saying like keep cool, you got this, breathe yes, and somebody who's like, fuck this, I'm gonna burn it all down, like I'm mad at everyone so much so that Amanda Anissimova got some blowback on the socials, showed everyone her blister and while she was doing so, flip the bird, well.
Rennae Stubbs: She flipped the boot was awesome. It was on the bird finger, which is I would not have been any better that it was great, but also she then went out and lost comfortably the next day to Emma Raducanu. But also, what the WTF is that? What the what the WTF on the scheduling of having her play at night and putting her third on the next day. Now, a lot of people won't think, well, that's pretty late, But also I want to know how we have these ten day events and players are having to do that kind of a schedule. That is bullshit.
Caitlin Thompson: There's been a lot of critique of the Miami Open.
Rennae Stubbs: Why isn't she scheduling the next night?
Caitlin Thompson: Again, I will play devil's advocate in this scenario as much as I want to critique the Miami Open a tournament that I feel should be in different hands at a different venue, potentially at a different time of year, and say, I have now comfort believe that scheduling tennis matches is unbelievably difficult because of the amount of matches you have to get through, whether throws, wrenches, and plans. Some matches go fast on some courts and then they're sitting empty. Other matches take forever and there's a bottleneck. So I get that you do have to like kind of keep a lot of balls in the air literally and figuratively to make sure that everyone. Plus there's TV rights and China is paying, and they wanted their player at a certain time, and ESPN wants to probably presumably an American or this time, you know, tennis channel. So like you know, there's a lot of factors here that need to go into it. Do we think this person's a huge draw? Maybe in this tournament, but maybe not the next one. So how do we handle which sized stadium to put them on? You know, A lot of things are more politics, but.
Rennae Stubbs: That would have been very, very hard for Amanda to back up because they didn't get finished till about.
Caitlin Thompson: Did you watch the match?
Rennae Stubbs: I did?
Caitlin Thompson: I mean I watched every point of that basically, I mean not to saying anything away from Emma Raducanu, who, when healthy and in sound mind, which I think she appears to be to your point, is a free, creative, thoughtful, elegant player like I can't say enough a better game, which is why I'm always rooted for her. I like Anissimova, but you know, she barely made that a match. Like she was shaking ball, she was on sorts. She could tell she was also different completely.
Rennae Stubbs: Atmosphere, playing at night, heavier conditions. Then you go on the day, you know, breezy conditions in Miami, it's lost, like you can't see the ball properly. Like she had looked like a until maybe maybe maybe two o'clock in the morning. Maybe I would stress probably more two or three in the morning.
Caitlin Thompson: And then she's playing you know, you know, during the day, late hour or something.
Rennae Stubbs: It's like waking up the next day and having to go out there and play against you know, a player who's playing tremendous tennis. Anyway, So Emma Raducanu, I'm super happy that she has done well because she is a name and a player that we need to do well. And I have to say this. I think six months ago, if you'd said, is Emma Raducanu going to be inside the top ten again, I would have said I doubt it. And it's not because I didn't believe in her ability. I mean, this is a Grand Slam champion, but I just felt like the injuries and the no coach, coach, no coach, all the stuff, the stalker, you know, she always has just so much going on around her, and I just feel like with this confidence, there's no question she can be back inside the top ten because the tennis that I saw her play against Emma Navarro in particular, it was great, was so good, it was such good tennis, and her serving was better. I do believe that she she's gonna win Wimbledon. Everybody.
Caitlin Thompson: And the last thing I'll say about Emma, which is why I like watching her play, it's still clear that she's very intelligent, which to me, I understand why that that's I thought you're gonna say, I understand, which I really to as an extremely intelligent person myself. No, she's still clear that there's a lot going out in her head, which is why she plays a really creative style when she is confident and while she plays like sort of befuddled when when she's not. And I don't know that the coaching and the sort of reaction that she's the sort of crowd that she had around her has really appreciated that about her. I think she has a part time woman coach who's a British player, who kind of like seems to like economics, who's a yeah exactly, who's like a titan of industry and in the business world. But I think she must feel like she's on the level got yeah, and also got like the right amount of distance, Like, I don't think she needs somebody like barking down her throat, like treating her like she's a seatball hitting a type of player, because she's not. She needs somebody to be like, hey, you got this. Like you've got a lot of tools. Maybe it's too many, but let's focus.
Rennae Stubbs: If she can work on her coming into the net and her swing bollies yeah, and being a little bit more aggressive in that term and that way, I think there's no question she can be back.
Caitlin Thompson: She's certainly certainly fun to watch and I'm really happy for her, most importantly that it looks like she's having fun out there.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, she's got a tough one against Jessica Pegula. She's just getting through her Kalinskaya match where I don't know what it is with her and Kalinskaya, but they played barn Burner matches. Every match goes seven to six and the third it's crazy. But I think once Jess got through that match, she was comfortable against Kostyuk yesterday two and three. I think Jess is going to be tough to beat at this tournament. She practices and lives in southern South Florida, and so these conditions are perfect for her. But one player that's getting a lot of like publicity is Alexandra Eala. Oh yeah, no wild card, we wild card. Now my player Ellen Perez, who was down in Miami with the doubles player hit with Alexandra one day. It was before the tournament. Because she doesn't really know anyone out there. She's like, you know, she's a kid, like nineteen years of age. She's out there and she had up looking for someone to hit with, right, and so Ellen said, well, I know her a little bit, you know, because Ellen talks to everybody, and she's like, I'll see if she wants to hit, and she's like, yeah, sure, i'll hit. So they went out and hit for an hour and it was such a good practice really, and she's a lefty and it plays similarly to Allen in a lot of ways, you know. Now, Allen was a decent singles player in her own right, and they were crushing four hands to each other and it was a lot of fun to watch actually, and she was a sweetheart but sort of had no idea how to how things worked and was a little bit and her coach was a little bit the same, and it was just a really nice hour of practice and I thought, I don't know if she's good enough to you do well and doesn't really crack the ball big enough. And we sort of were a little bit like, oh, I don't know, And there she is. She's in the quarter finals. I mean ad Meddle. She had to walk over yesterday against Bodosa, you know, to beat Madison Keys for and too. Madi Keys just had a couple of bad losses in the last couple of weeks. It'll be interesting to see how she bounces back. I believe she's playing Charleston, which she's one before, so so we'll see.
Caitlin Thompson: I'm putting on my chips in the Madi Keys Wimbledon basket.
Rennae Stubbs: I think she's going to be tough to beat at when we'll too Iga Swiatek. It's just again just crushing people left and right. She's had a couple of tough first sets. She's gone through seven six seven six on two occasions last night against Svitolina and the match before against Elise Mertens. But she goes up against Eala today. I think that's going to be a comfortable victory in two sets unless Alexandra, Alexandra, can you know she should with something special?
Caitlin Thompson: But I think her special thing should be as a graduate of the Rafael Nadal Academy, have Rafa flying in sitting in her box. Wouldn't that be fun?
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, that could be.
Caitlin Thompson: Wouldn't that be exciting? If you look up and you're like heroes in your opponent's box?
Rennae Stubbs: Can I just can I just talk to you about speaking of players boxes?
Caitlin Thompson: Sure?
Rennae Stubbs: Is this out on the old socials?
Caitlin Thompson: This has to be, this is the end. This is the end.
Rennae Stubbs: This is the end of the podcast.
Caitlin Thompson: So we're building the end.
Rennae Stubbs: We're building to put crescendo here. But I was watching Novak play the other day and he missed the forehand and he looks up at his playerbox and they of course, the camera goes to the playerbox and here's Andy mar Are just sitting there just looking like a stun mullet, like, you know, not giving him a stun mullet, a stunned mullet. Have you ever heard that?
Caitlin Thompson: Stunned Mullet?
Rennae Stubbs: Very australianism. Basically, somebody just sitting there. Light deer in headlights. Sure, right, that's what Americans say. We don't have deers.
Caitlin Thompson: You have mullets.
Rennae Stubbs: We have mullets.
Caitlin Thompson: Which is a bird, it's a fish. Okay.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah. So anyway, so there's Andy just sitting there like stun mullet, and he looks over and his physio gestures to him how to hit a forehand, like cover the forehand, cover it, cover it or whatever, get it out in front. And I'm thinking to myself, I have had physios work with me on the tour, not many because I couldn't afford it, but from once in a blue moon. If I looks over at my playbox after missing a forehand and my coach was sitting there and my physio told me how to hit a fourhand, I would fucking tell them to leave. I'd be like, shut the fuck up. Why you are a physio. You have never hit a forehand in your life, certainly in a professional way, and you're telling me how to hit a fourhand.
Caitlin Thompson: Once again, you're making an assumption, maybe with the tourist allows you with physios. The bigger question is why did Andy Murray say anything?
Rennae Stubbs: Because Andy Murray knows there's nothing he can tell him that's going to make a difference in that situation.
Caitlin Thompson: What is that?
Rennae Stubbs: Because nobody knows what more?
Caitlin Thompson: What is that?
Rennae Stubbs: Because nobody knows more how to hit a forehand in the court. The Novak Djokovic knows exactly what he has to do to hit a good forehand? Does he need to have sometimes it reiterated to him by his coach maybe, but his physio and the same thing, the same thing happened. You know, I'm the one that looks like an idiot because the guy wins more than anybody has ever done in history, so clearly something works for him. Maybe the physio or the trainers hear what the coach has told him, so then they say it to him because oh no, he's speaking in Serbian.
Caitlin Thompson: Maybe he just needed some VABs.
Rennae Stubbs: But I don't know. But like even at the French Open a number of years ago, and I may have told this on the pod before, but I'm on the court with Sam Stozer and Novak was playing on the court next to us, just down below us. But I could see the court and the entire time the fitness trainer is telling him how to hit a foehand like the guy that's with Janick Sinner now, the Italian dude. Yeah, he was out there and he was showing Novak where to hold his hands, that's how to hit in return. And I'm thinking to myself, what the fuck does this fitness trainer no more than Novak Djokovic or his tennis coach, which would have been at the time.
Caitlin Thompson: Grand Slam winner Goran Ivaneisevic.
Rennae Stubbs: I have to I think, I don't think helped me understand it.
Caitlin Thompson: I will explain it to you in the only way that I can understand it, which is, does this fitness trainer or fitness trainer his body, physio, whatever it is. Do these guys know more about tennis than you the professionals. No, sure, certainly not, whether they've played or not.
Rennae Stubbs: I don't.
Caitlin Thompson: I can't speak to that, but I think watching Novak play for the last better per twenty years, Novak is an energy guy. He's a guy who wants a chatter. He wants back and forth, he wants a little gibber jab.
Rennae Stubbs: So give him, give him, give his fist.
Caitlin Thompson: To me, what is so fascinating about hiring the stoic uh, you would call a stoic in the coaching box. Yes, because you know, sitting there with his arms crossed, and it's like, what do you know? Do I get why he would fill his box with a bunch of serbians, like some of whom are getting rowdy and some of whom maybe know more than others. Yes, get it makes sense. Even Goran was pretty calm, but he got into it because I think that's what Novak likes. I think that's what he needs. I think that's what he wants. He wants like a little bit of an audience to play out. I think Novak, in a very compelling way, like we're not is doing an interesting psycho drama at all times in his own head. Mostly some supporting characters absolutely agree. So if I look over and I want you to be in my psycho drama, it's like you're gonna not participate, You're just gonna sit there. No again, fitness trainer, he's just looking around for somebody to get something. And then the fitness trainer's like, yeah, okay, i'll physio. I'm gonna I'll get in Yeah, sure, okay. So I think that's what's happening. Do I doesn't make sense to me? No, it doesn't make any more sense to me than.
Rennae Stubbs: It does you.
Caitlin Thompson: But I think that's just I'm explaining. I think what is happening, which is he needs a lot of chippiness. He needs to need a lot of chips.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, I get it, like I get like him looking up and which is.
Caitlin Thompson: Also why it doesn't make any sense to me that Andy Murray is his coach. It doesn't that make any sense.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, as I told you in the last part, I did see them out there in Miami and they were talking about his forehand and I was like, oh my god, look at this. Look at the minutia that is going on here. It's what makes him so great is that he's always looking for that edge. But the edge that I don't understand is why are you taking direction on how to hit a tennis ball from a guy that cannot play tennis?
Caitlin Thompson: You know what you're still.
Rennae Stubbs: I get, like, hold on, let me finish. I get what you're saying. He needs the chippiness, he needs, he needs the energy. Okay, that's fine, get up and give him that.
Caitlin Thompson: I actually wasn't going to contradict you. I was going to say, let's wrap this up, because I actually think since you're still on Twitter. Let's hear what people have to say.
Rennae Stubbs: Oh good one, what, oh BlueSky? Please?
Caitlin Thompson: Whatever?
Rennae Stubbs: Please please? People go to BlueSky.
Caitlin Thompson: You talk to people on the internet. I don't really talk to Renee. Tell her what you think is happening, whatever medium. If you message me with it, I will try to pass it on. But go to Renee and tell her what you think is happening in this psychodrama to which we only have a tiny bit of priven Now.
Rennae Stubbs: All right, everyone, we'll see you and hear from us next week. Bye.
