Caitlin Thompson: We were on school holiday.
Rennae Stubbs: Where were you?
Caitlin Thompson: I was a tennis camp with my family.
Rennae Stubbs: Oh, that's allowed. I was just chilling.
Caitlin Thompson: Actually, that's you deserve that.
Rennae Stubbs: I thank you. I do deserve that from time to time. But we are back. We are back in regards to the last couple of weeks. Let's talk about the last couple of weeks. But more importantly, there was a lot of very interesting results this past week, including before we get to anything, the fact that Germany took an entire day off at a tournament for Easter.
Caitlin Thompson: Didn't realize Germany was that Catholic. Well, apparently to be off for Good Friday, because I was like, this is your prime time, this is semifinals day.
Rennae Stubbs: They just skipped it. Remember Easter moves around, right, great, you don't know remember the whole Biden situation where they had Trans Visibility Day and it was on the same day as Easter Sunday, and what the people in the right, lost their money. I lost their mind and their money. Oh I'm losing my money right now looking at the stock market. But yeah, they all lost their mind because they're like, how can Biden do that? It's like, well, Easter, he comes around and changes all the time, and it just so happens. It was on trans visibility Day, so he honored both, which is what the president is supposed to do.
Caitlin Thompson: The normal presidents do that. I was shocked because it was a Monday final, which meant that we did not know the results of Stuttgart until this morning on Monday.
Rennae Stubbs: I mean, come on, like, I mean listen, I'm all for it, like celebrating Easter. And I had an amazing event last night that I went to. It was called Later Seder. I had my Jewish friends here in New York invited me for this really fun event and it was great. And like everyone like, I'm all for people celebrating way they want to celebrate.
Caitlin Thompson: You're a party gal, But to take a whole day off a tennis tournament for...
Rennae Stubbs: Well, one thing.
Caitlin Thompson: I was thinking to myself when I was watching Carlos Alcaraz and Holger Rune play in Barcelona in their final, which we will talk about on Sunday. On Sunday is you know I've lived in Spain.
Rennae Stubbs: I love Spain.
Caitlin Thompson: They are very very progressive there, but they're also a majority Catholic country. And I thought, Oh, this is interesting that they are playing on Easter.
Rennae Stubbs: They played on Good Friday.
Caitlin Thompson: And Germany, which is not I just think of Germany as like very secular.
Rennae Stubbs: Apparently from our very German cohort, Andrea Petkovic, Apparently that area Stuttgart is quite Catholic and conservatives.
Caitlin Thompson: Yes, okay, that makes more sense because that's why I don't think they were shutting down stuff in Berlin on Friday.
Rennae Stubbs: No, but I just don't even remember that happened. I don't think i've ever heard that in a tennis event. And I played a long time, and I played over Easter.
Caitlin Thompson: I was shocked to see no tennis on my TV from Stuttgart on Friday.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, but I was very happy to. And I was like, did it rain? And I was like, wait, it's indoors.
Caitlin Thompson: It's indoors. I was happy to have a little extra tennis on Monday morning from Stuttgart.
Rennae Stubbs: A final.
Caitlin Thompson: Usually you just see the beginning rounds of a tournament shall we start with Stuttgart as a result, and Iga.
Rennae Stubbs: Get to it. Let's get let's get to and then we're going to get to some really sort of funny things that happened also in the tennis world this past week or so. But Jelena Alona Ostapenko, like when she's on, forget it seriously, like she's that type of player that you just pray and hope that she has one of those days and just things don't really go her way and then it can be pretty horrendous the tennis that she plays. But when she's on and she's confident and especially indoors, okay. And also this court suits her because it's a bit of a slippery clay court. It's not great for footing. Like, you know, even even the great movers, and arguably Iga Swiatek is by far the best mover on clay, and Coco Gauff you see them, they're kind of slipping a little bit. They don't really have that same ability to slide and be controlled into the shot and you're a little bit It's kind of like how Charleston is slippery.
Caitlin Thompson: The HarTru is a different clay.
Rennae Stubbs: Different in particular, it's pretty well. I've played on them both. I did not play on Stuttgart's hard court. It was I played it when I was a hard court tournament, so clearly the footing was much better.
Caitlin Thompson: But now that you say that, Stuttgart has been the scene to some horrific, horrific injuries actually on the women's tour. I'm thinking actually of a friend after Andrea Petkovic I think had to pull out of a tournament, had to put out of the tournament a couple of years ago with a high ankle sprain. I feel like I was one of the worst injuries I've ever seen. So maybe there is something to the fact that it's slippery in there and indoor clay, I don't know indoor clear.
Rennae Stubbs: I think it strange. I think what it is is is when you do an indoor clay court like that, that is a they're bringing the clay in and they're laying it down over a certain amount of time and hoping it settles and then they play. Whereas when you're playing outside on a clay court that is like a Barcelona or a Munich or any of these other tournaments, those clay courts are there all year long. They're being played on all the time, they're getting warded all the time, getting packed down all the time, they're getting you know, rolled all the time. So they're a perfect clay court. So when the ball when you're sliding, it's the same feel, whereas indoors they're sort of laying that down and it's kind of just like it's not really the same anyway. Having said that, Ostapenko's game lends itself really well to that because she serves big and she hits it into the corners hard, and it's not as easy. Like if Iga was ever going to play on clay court, which most of us would say, if she was going to beat Ostapenko, it would be on a clay.
Caitlin Thompson: Court, right absolutely.
Rennae Stubbs: But if there was a clay court for her to not. Play her on, it would be this one. And so I think that's why it wasn't that big of a shot that Iga did lose to her on clay. Even though now it's zero and six, it's starting to be a little mental, but it's also that surface that clay court did not suit Iga. It'll be interesting because they're going to play each other if they win their subsequent rounds in Madrid this week again not ideal for Iga. It's a little altitude and Madrid, so that ball does like fly on you. The serve is important and the biggest issue for me if we go back before Ostapenko beating Sabalenka, etc. The biggest issue for me when Iga plays her is the serve is so vulnerable, and I have talked about this ad nauseum and I will talk about it when it comes to players like Iga, when it comes to players like Coco. The serve is so bloody important, and Iga hits the same serve almost every time on the second serve. It's that kickserve that goes right into Ostapenko's best shot her backhand. She's deadly on the returns. Iga has got to figure out a better way to get more first serves in the court. Her service motion is so discombobulated, there's no fluidity to it, and you know when she hits it well, she hits it really well. And you've got to serve well against Ostapenco because if you don't, she's crushing returns on you, and she can serve you off the court as well, because indoors, particularly if Penko serves well.
Caitlin Thompson: So here's a question that we got into it a little bit over the weekend because there's so many people who've been watching the Ostapenko Swiatek matchup for years now and sort of marveling that there is such a lopsided head to head. One thing that's you know, you started the show by saying, you know, if Ostapenko is on watch out, sure, but the truth is Jelena Ostapenko is not on all the time. Otherwise she would be winning more than one Grand Slam and winning more than you know, one tournament a year basically, which is kind of where she's netting out, which is not bad. I take that career in heartbeat but well, you know, sure, but there does seem something particular about this matchup if some of us find it sort of comical or nuts or unexpected. But because you have coached against and with players who have maybe matchups that are certainly unfavorable and at a certain point become a little bit mental, which I have to imagine, you know, one of the folks that I that I talk to a lot on the is Anastasia from the grounds pass podcast, and she was like, you know, maybe I'm just crazy, but it looked like Iga went out there and was sort of expecting to lose, and the fact that she got three sets was actually sort of positive. You know, there's so much fraughtness about this particular matchup that, yes, of course Jelena Ostapenko one on to beat her Aryna Sabalenka in a pretty you know, close but decided affair today, But like, what is it about that matchup other than you know, the server you know, talking to me about how important sort of matchups are and why this is maybe something that's festered between the two of them.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, listen, it's it's always going to be a matchup. It's always going to be how someone plays, you know, whether it be myself in my playing days, you would walk on a certain court against a certain play and just be like, I have their number, I know exactly what they do under pressure, I know exactly what I can do under pressure against them to hurt them. And so there's that sense of comfort level when you walk on the court knowing that your best or your you know a game will always beat their a game. And that's a good feeling, right, So Ostapenko knows that she is going to take advantage of the second serves. That's for one. She knows that if egg is not controlling the point, she's not a great defender, particular on the forehand side. And so you know, Ostapenko uses her flat ball striking and aggressive play. And also Ostapenko and I have coached against her a bunch of times. She is a play that you go, hmm, what's her strengths and weaknesses and where does she go under pressure? And a lot of coaches will tell you that they don't really know, you know, because she she has a tendsity like the forehand cross call, there's no question about that. But then she can pop one down the line and you're like, Jesus, where does that come from? And it could be on the biggest point of the match. So the unpredictability of how she plays is actually such a positive thing for her. And it's honestly, it's what I like about her game. And I realize she has a lot of haters and a lot of sometimes you don't know, I don't even know if she thinks she knows where she's going with it.
Caitlin Thompson: Like I like watching her because she's a chaos She's a chaos agent. That's what I like. I recognize that it's not that you know, enjoyable probably to play against. But also I think you're right, she doesn't necessarily know. Yeah, she doesn't seem that connected to reality in all ways.
Rennae Stubbs: And I want to see Iga start producing a little bit of a variety when she plays against her. I didn't see one drop shot. I didn't see one attempted real slice. There's no attempt now it is. Let me backtrack. It is not easy to do that against Ostapenko. She's hitting the ball so hard and flat immediately. But there were times where I felt she could have done a drop shot, hit a bit of a different shot, and she chose not to. There was a huge point in the third set to go I think it may have been to even it up in the third set when she went down that break and she had a second serve backhand, I think it was maybe to go fifteen forty, et cetera. And she chose to go for her backhand down the line, which is a very good shot for her. But every now and again to see her do it on just like hit a little drop shot off that return. You know, Ostapenko's running backwards. She's not a great mover on plays, She's definitely not a great mover. So you've got to get her moving. And sometimes you've got to get her moving in uncomfortable areas on the court like slice the ball, short drop shot once or twice in your life in a match, because when you become predictable, that's predictable for them to be able to read what you're doing. Offer them return all the things, and Iga made some really bad bad choices of shot and bad errors in the third set, particularly offer return, Like she'd be getting into the third set or getting into the game, it'd be fifteen thirty on Ostapenko serve or fifteen you know, love thirty and she would just miss a return and it's just like what is that? And that is pressure because she knows if I don't hit a great shot, she's going to hit a winner. But sometimes you have to force your opponent, particularly in really critical moments, to hit a winner. And it was very similar to what Rune did to Alcaraz today. We'll get into that, but I just feel like Iga panics. She doesn't play the ball behind Ostapenko enough. She doesn't play enough variety. She doesn't hit a couple of high balls like Ostapenko loves the ball in her hitting zone, get it above her shoulder, particularly on the forehand. She doesn't like that shot. But she doesn't try the variety.
Caitlin Thompson: So the next time they're projected to play and I don't like doing the like, well, you know, they're probably gonna beat in the quarterfinals. They'll probably, you know, because I feel like tennis, one of the things we like about it, right, I like about it is it's so unpredictable, you don't know, you know, making projections into the semis and finals just feels like an exercise in stupidity. But there's a chance they could play again very soon. On this surface, which is also Madrid at elevation, is a fast court, which even though it's clay, will probably also favor Ostapenko if they do play.
Rennae Stubbs: It won't be a massive like if it will be the play against Ostapenko on in Rome or in Paris, I think it will be a different result. But if I was coaching her and we got sort of getting to this before we started the pod, is that how do you change that mindset for the player, and it's kind of like a you know, a reset in their own brains. And I would say to her, look all these other times before you've done this, you've done that, you've tried this. You need to go out there without a doubt in your mind that you're winning this match. And you know, I had a situation where I was coaching Karolina Pliskova and she had lost many, many many times to Petra Kvitova her countrywoman. They played a club levels. They weren't exactly great friends. They you know, she didn't necessarily like losing. And I gave Karolina three things only to think about in that match. I wanted her to cover a certain forehand, I wanted her to cover a certain serve on a big point, and I wanted her to hit it to one spot in particular. And I literally gave her two or three things, and I said, and you're not losing this fucking match today, Like no, And even her husband said to me, what do you think? You know, he would always sort of say what do you think? And clearly I was always positive with ever whoever she played, But I was like, oh, no, she's winning today. And he looked at me, are you serious. I go, oh, yeah, she's winning today, because I knew that there was two shots that Petra particularly liked. And I think that once you know that, it's sort of like knowing what your opponent's strengths and weaknesses are. When you walk on the court, you know what they're going to do and you think, oh, oh, I've got that. And I think that that helped in the very first game when Petra, you know, hit a certain shot or two and it was almost like Carolina looked at me like, oh, I've got this. So you've got to be very very positive to your player, tell them one or two things and tell them you're not losing this fucking match today, And that's the way you have to be. I would be with Iga. I would give her two or three things. I would definitely tell her to hit some drop shots more and make her move and hit some angles, get her off the court, and then drive the ball. But if you're going to just try and hit with her, you're not going to win. Last thing and your serve. You've got to change your serve.
Caitlin Thompson: So yeah, last thing, I need to because some of the things you talked about, and I was asking about, were like a matchup specific strategy. More broadly, you know, I think obviously this is the part of the season that Iga tends to emerge as our dominant obviously clay courter she's got, you know, some competition maybe from the Elina Svitolina of the world and Cocoa Gauff. You know, it was nice to see Muchova obviously get to the French Open final last year. But by and large, like when. The clay season goes outdoors to a slower surface, it's Iga's to lose any concern for you with Iga's play so far this year, this isn't typically when she does that. Well anyway, she doesn't typically have a good Australia or a good Middle East. She doesn't you know typically, But yeah, like between that hardcourt season, she said, periods in the Sunshine doubles, you'd want her to, I think, be better looking than she has looked so far this year.
Rennae Stubbs: Well for sure, any. Look at two three years ago she had a thirty seven match win streak, right, I mean from the Strain Open, the moment Ash Barty pulled out as number one player in the world, Iga one, you know, Indian Wells, Miami, every clay caught tournament, the French Open, she was on fire. So you can't say it is starting to okay. I call it plaque on the brain. Right when you have a little bit of you know, where you're not confident, you start there's little things that start getting into your brain and you got to chip away at them. And so you got to chip away at this Iga match up with with Ostapenko in some way. But a lot of it is she now has this like scared feeling of I'm not winning what I should be winning and I'm not getting the wins on clay. What's happening to me? And so I is there concern? Yeah? Absolutely, I think there's a little bit of concern. Can she get it back and right the ship in Madrid, Rome and the French for sure? But if she doesn't, yes, I do worry about her psyche going forward because her game is so predicated on confidence, and that's where I would like to see her get a little bit more variety, because when game plan A is not on, she can start tapping into game plan B and see and it's it's it does It confuses me because she started the year so well, like that match she played against Keys, and I talked about this with Petko a couple of weeks ago. I think that lost to Keys has really hurt her this year. A sliding door moment of that might have been a sliding door of twenty twenty five, the beginning of it, because if she wins that match, maybe even if she loses in the final, I don't think that would have bothered her that much. Losing to Sabalenka in the finals of the Australian Open. Just getting to the final would have been a thing for her. But having a match point and losing that, I don't know, that has sort of put a little chip or a little plaque in the brain. Maybe she's lost the confidence to finish matches or I don't know, because.
Caitlin Thompson: She's definitely one of the more mental players, you know, and I think, you know, unlike Jelena Ostapenko, who just looks like she's literally kind of just hitting balls and whatever happens happens.
Rennae Stubbs: It's a different pressure level too, Let's be honest.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, it's easy to go out and take out a one seed when you have no pressure and everyone's sort of you know, you can smile. I mean, even in the match against Sabalenka had all the pressure then Ostapenko's playing with house money for sure, Whereas iga, I think she has a lot of expectations, you know, and I think compounded by the fact that she's already a player who's like pretty mentally, you know, on or off, and I think that.
Rennae Stubbs: Sort of believes that she's going to beat everybody on any day, whether she goes or not.
Caitlin Thompson: She doesn't.
Rennae Stubbs: She's like, well, it was just me. I played terrible. It's never about her opponent playing well. She's either I played great and I won. Yeah, you know, never never mind the fact that they played like crap. She played great. That type, but she is that type of player, and if she loses, it's because she played terrible.
Caitlin Thompson: It's always on her on strings.
Rennae Stubbs: It's always on her strings, to be honest with you, a lot of time. But also there are times where you hit a shot that was just so dumb as well, like but she doesn't look at it like that.
Caitlin Thompson: So the delusional part of her ballroom dancing career with this amount of delusion public do you think she's like, "I am the world's greatest dancer"?
Rennae Stubbs: Oh yeah, for sure, one hundred percent.
Caitlin Thompson: I love that.
Rennae Stubbs: I mean but that you know, the ego, the ego fest out in the final today with Sabalenka, because let's face it, Aryna definitely has her own, like behind the shit kind of feeling, and she should, by the way, because she's arguably the best play in the world. But at the same time, today I think a little bit of horse's mental as well in Stuttgart, having lost in the final so many times there that I actually think that hurt her today.
Caitlin Thompson: I was going to say, you know, Aryna Sabalenka doesn't usually suffer in the self confidence department, until all of a sudden she does, and that's catastrophic. Yeah, so she still has that. I'm really impressed by her in the last couple of years. You know, we've obviously talked about the yips on the serve and getting over the semifinal hurdle, which for a while in Grand slams was like her big you know, gating mechanism where she just kind of couldn't get there even if she was superior to the person she was playing on that day. So I think, yeah, like when one of the things that I've hand really endearing about Aryna Sabalenka, she's so confident, she's so tough, valkyrie and all this stuff, except sometimes she's not and she's scared and it's a you know, emotional. But again, I think that's part of the inherent drama of watching her and being her fan that I kind of like. But it seemed like that was a play today.
Rennae Stubbs: One thing I am getting a little bit tired of with Aryna. And listen, we all love the histrionics and the crazy and the speeches, but I'm really tired of her going after her team when she loses with surcasm, I'm over it.
Caitlin Thompson: It's not funny.
Rennae Stubbs: It's just like at that point, at this point, it's like, all right, stop telling your team, hey, guys, great job today. You know, it's just every time it's gotten, it's gotten stale. So we gotta Aryna, we got it up that you just got to thank your team or not and just stop giving them shit because it's so passive, aggressive and it's a little annoying.
Caitlin Thompson: It's not funny.
Rennae Stubbs: It's just not changing. And then she tries to laugh and everyone's like, oh no, it's not funny. You've given guys shit.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Also, they're your employees, like are they gonna...
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, they're not gonna say yeah.
Caitlin Thompson: They can't put a middle finger up. It's like to see them doing. I like to see them. So you mention Rune and Alcaraz, should we get to that match?
Rennae Stubbs: Yes, let's get to that Barcelona.
Caitlin Thompson: Wow.
Rennae Stubbs: That was you know, it was interesting because we we sort of talked about a bunch of years ago that Rune, Sinner, Alcaraz, we're going to be the next big three, right totally that that was what everyone talked about, Oh this is the next big three. Rune, who was in the top fat he had that amazing couple of weeks being Djokovic blah blah blah. Yep, we didn't even write down Djokovic. We got to get to that at one stage. But let me just say, Rune reminds me so much of our Alcaraz. When they played earlier on I was like, oh God, these guys are going to go at it for years because they are very similar with the way they play, very unbelievably athletic. That both of them are so quick. They don't have massive serves, but they have great serves. They like to come in, they like to hit that little slidy, little touch forehand volley like there was a volley today, there was a There was a point yesterday that Rune played. I think it was four all or five all in the first set, thirty all and he served and volleyed and he hit it unbelievable little touch fourhand bolly, which you know hows to be perfect yence outcres because he's going to run it down. But when he hit that, I'm like, man, that was so gutsy of him to do that. And then to see him he was the more disciplined. And this is the difference because Rune was it. I wouldn't say he wasn't disciplined before, maybe because he was young, but also I think technically he struggled a little. On the forehand, he was a little bit this in way. In this way, I think he's starting to really come into his own. He's had the same guy coaching him now for years. I think he had too many voices in his head. He had this coach and that coach, and he's had that same guy.
Caitlin Thompson: And that was his childhood coach. Then he returned to and I think that can't new what he shows he's it looks like he's getting the same consistent messaging, which for him and I kind of like this about him, like he's kind of been a punk in the past, but he sort of owns it.
Rennae Stubbs: Way that I've once said famously on this podcast. And sometimes he's got a punchable face because he did act like a douchebag three or four years ago.
Caitlin Thompson: And way to go, Holger Rune, for he hasn't been.
Rennae Stubbs: I mean what he he's display today, particularly in the first look second set, there's no question in my mind that Alcaraz was absolutely hampered with that right quad sorry groin area, hip flexer. You could tell, particularly on his serve that he was struggling with and look, Alcaraz is not a bullshitter. He's not gonna be like, oh my leg hurts because I lost the first out. He's the type of guy that would love the challenge of playing in Barcelona winning a match in three sets, yep. So he was definitely hampered, but the first set he wasn't. And that was a difference that Holger Rune was way more disciplined, particularly in the tiebreak. I mean, Alcaraz has tried to hit that back end drop shot like at three to two up on the mini break, and it was a terrible shot, Like there were just choices and his forehand goes off.
Caitlin Thompson: His fore hand. He missed some of those five feet. Just basic shit, basic shit. And I think that's sort of, you know, one of the things that's so endearing I think about, Oh God, I love which everyone loves it. I mean, he moves feathery late like Federer. He's got the you know, battle intensity of Nadal, he's got the flexibility of you know, like he really does have all the tools. But the one thing he's missing, and this he could really learn from Djokovic, is the mental fortitude and the ability to stay disciplined and stay in because he certainly does not have that, and it doesn't show in a match because he's so good. Well look, he's so fun. But in a match like this. Where it actually comes down to a tie break and a few points and a few choices, he's taking mental vacations. He's like doing dumb shit, which I kind of again sort of like about it about him because it makes when he is able to keep it together almost all the much better. But you kind of forget like, oh, this is actually his big hurdle. It's not physical, it's not you know, creative, it's actually he's just you know, space cadet.
Rennae Stubbs: He's got too many shots, yes, and that's just making dumb choices. Sometimes did better than him in the final yesterday. He was more disciplined fresh line, and you know he was rewarded for it. And for me, I'm super happy about it because I absolutely you know how I feel about Carlos. I love this guy so much. He is so good for the game. He's very nicest kid you could ever meet in your tire life. And when I say, I've not met a nicer young man, he is nice to every single person.
Caitlin Thompson: I did get fun gossip, apparently the ladies really love Carlos. Yeah, and he's gotten himself into some hot water among some prominent Spanish business owners because of his prowess.
Rennae Stubbs: Prowess unless then makes me love him anymore because he's twenty years of age and let him have fun.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, he's got the world on a plate.
Rennae Stubbs: Doesn't need to be tied down at this point in he's life.
Caitlin Thompson: No, he certainly doesn't, and I'm happy about it. But it is really funny just because you're like, oh, yeah, he's a twenty year old, sort of coltish young talent. But yeah, I can imagine Holger Rune walking into Banc Sabadel Stadium in Barcelona, Spain, basically the closest thing you get to a home turf.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, for Carlos Alcaraz.
Rennae Stubbs: But it's interesting because Nadal. They showed Nadal winning that tournament twelve times, and I was like, fucking hell. First of all, what And then I thought the difference with Carlos and Rafa, because you know, everyone wants to compare these two Spanish greats. You know, Carlos is are great. I mean, what he's achieved in his career is phenomenal. Yeah, sure, but like Rafa would never pick the shots that ruff that Carlos does. You know, even he had an opportunity to actually break back in the maybe it's in the tie break, and he came running in and he just hit he chose a shot that you know, I hate coming in on the forehand cross court. He hit an inside in fourhand in a huge point and ran in and got pasted, and everyone's like what a shot from Actually I'm like, actually, the decision looking easiest shot to hit in tennis as a running forehand cross court, so he like those are mental decisions that someone like Rafa wouldn't do, which is why Rafa could win the French Open fourteen times because his discipline was through the roof. But anyway, I'm happy about Rune winning because it adds that little extra spice of you. How about the French Open because Carlos is by father favorite, so why can't Rune? Why can't Zverev? We know Zverev will have a hard time because he chokes when it comes to the finals.
Caitlin Thompson: But he didn't choke yesterday.
Rennae Stubbs: But yes, he did not choke to say, but again, he's won that tournament now three times in a row. You feel comfortable and unique? Is this for him to lose to Ben Shelton on clay? That should never happen, correct, Okay, I don't care what you think about no Ben Shelton's game. You should not lose that match, and he showed why he's the better player on clay. But I think Zverev and Rune are saying to everyone just hold the phone a little bit. Carlos is not the overwhelming favorite at the French. So if you want to put a little money on those two players, you should because they're probably well outside the favorite betting and I think that there's an opportunity there for someone to come in and say, Okay, maybe it's my turn this year.
Caitlin Thompson: Just like we talked about Iga and like, you know, let's get the worried index. I am the only person I think who cares about Stefanos Tsitsipas. But I'm worried about him because he put out with the back injury. And I love him and he's been in years past a pretty solid performer on clay. He's won Monte Carlo, he's gotten to the French Open finals. I want him to get better because I like watching his beautiful one handed backhand and all of his shenanigans. But a player that I think you're gonna actually feel a little bit more excited about talking about for the Worry Index is Novak Djokovic.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah. I don't know, I don't know what's going on. You know, we cannot overemphasize this is the greatest player of all time. He's won more than anyone else, but he is not getting younger, and at some point when you start getting the scar tissue, which is what I was saying, that plaque on your brain. You have lost the confidence to win matches. Even I don't care how great you are as a player. When you're not winning matches, it is not easy anymore, and everybody starts to think you're vulnerable. You're making you're making errors that you didn't make before. That you are not the discipline player that you used to be, and at some point you do. You're getting older and your legs aren't quite there. You're missing a shot because you're pulling the trigger too early, or you just don't have the discipline. And I just feel like he has won one tournament, one tournament and a year and what four months, five months going into five months. One tournament that was the Olympics, and he did it over best of three sets, which I can say that I think that was the best tennis I've ever seen him play. But if it was best of five, would he have won that Olympics? I don't know. I don't think so. I mean because I actually mentioned that to Carlos when I saw him two weeks later. I said, oh, you know, bad luck, maybe in five sets you win. He goes, yeah, I feel like two, you know, and I was like, yeah, because he feels like you can grind those matches out against someone like Novak and best of five.
Caitlin Thompson: But which is ironic because what I think has helped Novak Djokovic so much in his career is the quantity of five set matches, and we've seen him vulnerable in three set matches, and the irony now that that's hopefully playing into his favor, although let's see, I mean he's been winning neither five set tournaments. Nor three set tournaments. He's been when they had tournament outside of the Olympics, which again is a staggering cool achievement, which obviously he was very focused on, and I know a lot of his fans were like happy because that completes the trophy case. But it is a little bit of a question mark because usually I think at this time of the year, we're used to, even in years where he doesn't start well, seeing him be a viable contender.
Rennae Stubbs: And I think we felt that last year too. Remembers happening last year and we were like, oh, well, he'll turn up at the French and he'll do well. He'll turn up at Wimbledon. He did it, and then of course he you know the Olympics was I think it was just meant to be. I just do. I think there was a calm a thing there and it was meant to be. And that Raffle wasn't there at the French You know, he was there at the Olympics, but he wasn't the player that we know he is, and it just there was something serendipitous about it was his time, right, But everything else since then, I don't know. I don't know, and I'm going to go on the record and I think I think he might. I think we might—we've seen the best of Djokovic, I think he might surprise us with one random tournament win before he retires. But I think that we might not see him next year. Because I don't care who you are. When you're that great, losing sucks, yeah, And I don't care how much discipline you have to want to be better. Losing sucks. And when you're used to winning everything, losing sucks, and so you start to it starts to really affect you and your personal life and you and yourself everything. And it's like, why do I want to keep dragging myself away from my kids who are getting older. And I've told you this that the US Open two years ago, it was the first time I interviewed him before he went on the court, and I thought, huh, he doesn't sound overly pumped about going out to this match. It was the first time. Yeah, it was like, you know, how do you get up? I think I asked him along the lines of something like, "How do you get up for these… You know, what is it about Arthur Ashe at night or getting up for these matches and putting yourself through this kind of thing?" And he was like, "yeah, sometimes I wonder myself" and I was It was something along those sides. It wasn't that verbatim, But I remember in my brain going, huh, that's the first time I've ever heard him be a little bit sort of like negative and over going on the court. It was weird, and since then he has not done well. So I'm just I just think that at some point it's hard to keep digging yourself out and keep pretending that you're still this great when you're not having the results, and you know, having Andy maybe was trying to I don't know, get a little spark going or get a little of Andy's sort of ideas to make him better. But I just think at some point we all get old.
Caitlin Thompson: Well, as you were talking about Novak Djokovic and losing, sucking and not wanting to go out there after, you know, a time of feeling like you know you're not who you used to be. The interesting thing about this is I think Andy fought until the bitter end. He did, he didn't, he didn't go out on top.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, but also Caitlin, Andy was great, but he wasn't Novak. Not like and and Andy had gone through his ups and downs. And Andy loved and he loves tennis.
Caitlin Thompson: He loves the I think he loves the grist, whereas I think the difference might be I think Novak loves the battle. But I think ultimately he loves prevailing over every type of obstacle, even those he makes himself.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, happen, I just I mean, listen. I think Wimbledon will tell the story.
Caitlin Thompson: The French feels like it's not necessarily an indicator, but I think Wimbledon is the indicator.
Rennae Stubbs: Now. Interestingly enough, Sinner will be back and we'll see Sinner in Rome. So we'll see what Jannik Sinner has been up to in his three months.
Caitlin Thompson: This is what I'm talking about. These are the storylines that we've needed and been missing.
Rennae Stubbs: I love it. And while we're on the subject of Sinner, there was an interesting tweet that Jon Wertheim put out and highlight of the fact that the ITIA is now having the urine sample people that follow you off the court watch you in the showers, and I'm like, wait a second, That's always been the facts. And people were shocked about that, like what that's that's so you know, that's diving into your privacy and bro blah. It's like, yeah, the moment you lose, you would know as a player, you would see these people. I was going to say something bad then, but I'm like, they're just people doing their jobs right now. But we would see these people with.
Caitlin Thompson: The growth, ladies and gentlemen, we just witnessed some real growth.
Rennae Stubbs: But it's gonna get worse. Here are these people sitting there in the corner with their fucking what do you call those things? Clipboards? You see the clipboard people.
Caitlin Thompson: You just know I'm not showering alone.
Rennae Stubbs: Even if you win a match or lose a match, you know, the clip people are there and they're going to clip you and make your pee. And so the moment you walk off the court, they are literally behind you like they are velrco on you. They're like a hemorrhoid. They just follow you into the locker room. Clearly you have women. So the women come into the locker rooms.
Caitlin Thompson: You're just doing your jobs.
Rennae Stubbs: They come it. You just turn your jobs, go into the locker room, you take your clothes off. You want to shower. Now, a lot of people shower, including myself, because you know, when the water starts in the shower, you're like, oh my god, I gotta go to the toilet's so bad, right, yeah, and some people pee in the shower, okay, and those that deny it are lying, okay, because everyone pees in the shower, so fuck off. For those that you don't pee in the shower, you're not normal, Okay. So I would go and have a shower because I'm like, oh my god, I've got a peace so bad. But I would hang on to it. I would hang on to it, Caitlin, and then I would come out of that shower.
Caitlin Thompson: This is TMI, except its crucillay important.
Rennae Stubbs: It's not TMI because it's important and I would go okay. I would tell off, I put my clothes on, I go to okay, let's go pee. And I would go pee right because when you come off the court, you dehydrate it. You've been out there for an hour, two hours, three hours, you're not hydrated. So it's really hard to pee immediately off the court. And some people pee during the match. I never did that because I wasn't a person that went off the fucking tennis court like everybody else does on tour now, which is so annoying. And so now they're saying, well, they're going to be looking at you. I was like they were always looking at us in the shower. So why is this all of a sudden used to everybody.
Caitlin Thompson: I don't know. I've been trying to figure out exactly what is new about this to people, but I don't think there is anything new.
Rennae Stubbs: Caitlin, there was one time, right, just so people out there know how invasive it is, I was peeing in the cup, okay, and we ladies, you know, it's not that easy to get it into that cup, right, because the stream sometimes doesn't go the way you want it to. Okay, I know, we get into TMI but this is a fact. And I've got the cup underneath me and I'm trying to find it, and literally the lady is standing three feet from me, right in front of me, okay, and she looks at me and she goes, I can't see the cup.
Caitlin Thompson: That makes two of us.
Rennae Stubbs: She goes, I can't see the cup. I can't see if the if… and I go, well, lady, I'm sorry. If you want to see the cup, then you wouldn't have to test me because I'd be a dude. You'd be in here, okay, you would see my you know what going into the cup. I'm like, it's impossible to like, what do you want to stand up and do it? Like, it's so invasive. So people that say, you know, tennis is the most tested sport in the world.
Caitlin Thompson: It's insane. I wanna perhaps suggest because I think you're right from what I can tell, it's not necessarily new. Maybe they just they definitely reissued the rules. So maybe people outside of the sport were surprised by it. Sounds like no players were surprised by it. But also the thing that I think was new that that Warthimes tweet, maybe it was illustrating is that the agency clarified that showering is not an entitlement, which sort of is an ominous threat, which is basically like, if you guys don't follow the rules, we're not even gonna… we're gonna make it outside the rules for you to shower at all, which maybe is me reading into it, but I think the emphasis on showering not being an entitlement, therefore the implication is you could lose your…
Rennae Stubbs: So preposterous because you're going into the shower, you have someone looking at you!
Caitlin Thompson: Here's the thing. I think, maybe not to get to go down this rabbit hole too much, but I think maybe the issue here is not necessarily about showers and people peeing in the shower. I think maybe it is if you were using a cream or topical substance. On your body. Maybe the rule emphasis or they're going to wash it off is that they were going to wash off. I'm not an expert. I'm not and you and calling know about absorption.
Rennae Stubbs: Of us at a certain age might be putting testosterone cream on them, would they Oh, okay, yeah, man, of pause, this is what happens. Oh but here's the thing, Caitlin. It absorbs in like five seconds. Second of all, you're on a tennis court for two fucking hours playing a tennis match where you're sweating and telling yourself off all the time. Yeah. So if they think you're coming off a tennis court to wash off your your your test cream, your creams, you are out of your mind. So the fact that they're putting that out there is just to make everybody think, oh, we're so stringent. You guys have been stringent on the fucking players forever. So it's just nonsense that they put that out anyway, different subjects.
Caitlin Thompson: I think the one conclusion we can clearly draw is that, I.
Rennae Stubbs: Mean, did people not watch Icarus?
Caitlin Thompson: People should watch Icarus. What a great film Icarus is.
Rennae Stubbs: And they we're passing the pee under the door.
Caitlin Thompson: Yes, Icarus for anybody who doesn't know is about a man who sets out to because he is a recreational cyclist, take advantage of the fact that he's a recreational cyclist and begin a doping program. And again this begins as a recreational.
Rennae Stubbs: Like you taking Meldonium.
Caitlin Thompson: Exactly like me taking Maldonia, which is like, well it's technically not illegal. I'm a recreational level player. Maybe this will help, will it help? Let me find out? Meets the guy. The guy who's helping him turns out to be helping the entire Soviet uh and I guess later Russian they went to Soviet, the entire Russian Olympic team skirt doping protocols, and he like set up the whole system. And then it becomes this expose on which results even way too much. People need to realize what they're in for it, which is amazing anyways, a great films. One thing we can be sure about, which is the tennis is doping protocols, agencies and approach still leaves a lot to be desired.
Rennae Stubbs: It is, but also trust me, they're not doing anything nefarious in the bloody shower because people are staring at you. Can we talk about little Harriet Dart.
Caitlin Thompson: And how the showering sort of factors under this as well, speaking of showering, speaking of showering, Harriet Dart, the British player losing a match in the first or second round.
Rennae Stubbs: She was not happy with her opponents body odor on the tennis court. Now, listen, we've all been there. I've all been there. I've had opponents that didn't smell good and it wasn't fun. But the fact that she said something.
Caitlin Thompson: To the umpire, can you make this girl wear deoderant?
Rennae Stubbs: Like, if you're going to be that person and listen, let me just say, Harriet Dart is great, she's funny, she's a sweetheart. She lost her mind a little bit here and she did apologize and it wasn't a great look. The opponent her name is skipping me. But she put out are opponent Instagram later for a Dove commercial, which I thought was hilarious.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, she would basically said, hey, Dove, sounds like I need a sponsorship.
Rennae Stubbs: Yes, which I thought apparently probably does. But I thought that if you're going to do that, Harriet, just say it to your opponent. Just go, you stink. I don't like, if you're going to do something on the court out just because then nobody hears it, right, you just say it to her and maybe you get under a skin, no pun all right, But I did. I did. It's not a good look, but I did have a laugh about it. It wasn't great, but.
Caitlin Thompson: I think because it ended well with Harriet apologizing and the Frenchwoman making a joke about it, it is.
Rennae Stubbs: All fair in love and war.
Caitlin Thompson: I guess so.
Rennae Stubbs: And I do feel like sometimes we lose our mind on the tennis court because people lose reminds we've all done some crazy shit.
Caitlin Thompson: Should we talk about a player who is losing your mind at the WTA right now? Lesia Tseurenko, one of the Ukrainian players who has been very, very vocal about feeling like the Ukrainian players have not been supported enough. And this is not the first time she's made a statement about this. She's being very vocal from has been very vocal. She's one of the players and to be clear, the Ukrainian players who have refused to shake the hands of Russian and Belarusian players. She's not alone in this. It's also Elina Svitolina. I mean not I'm blaming them Marta Kostyuk, Yeah, but Lesia Tseurenko has pulled out and withdrawn and gave walkovers to her opponents. She's the one who sort of stands out as being the most sort of intense about this. I'm not saying she's wrong to be intense about it, but now she is suing the WTA for essentially it sounds like kind of a combination of creating a hostile work environment and not supporting the Ukrainian players enough against the Russians.
Rennae Stubbs: She's claiming that Steve Simon, the former CEO of the WTA, was not in essentially not supportive of her and very flippant towards her. That's how she felt. If you read the complaint and basically sort of going after Steve in a lot of ways and the WTA and is saying you weren't supportive of us, etc. And you said things that made me feel uncomfortable that all might be well and truly, and I'm sure, I'm sure that she felt that way. But listen, what I do know Steve. You know, think what you think about him as a CEO or some of the things that he did as a CEO, But he's a good man. He's a good man, and he I would find very unusual for him to be not caring or not empathetic towards someone like Lesia Tseurenko. I just can't imagine him being just, you know, kind of like dismissive, bugger off like kind of thing. I can't imagine that at all.
Caitlin Thompson: What do you think is behind this?
Rennae Stubbs: I don't understand this.
Caitlin Thompson: Attempt to bring this into the courts.
Rennae Stubbs: I don't understand this at all. I don't understand this at all. Look, Lesia Tseurenko is a little bit of a drama queen. Any player will tell you that. Any person on the tour will tell you that she sometimes pulls some like drama stuff on the court, whether injuries or sicknesses or whatever's going on.
Caitlin Thompson: It's just like, oh, I think she possesses one of there's a stat oh the most defaults, defaults and withdrawals for reasons for all things, all things,
Rennae Stubbs: So you know, unfortunately, it's kind of like the boy that crows wolf. At some point people are going to be like, I don't believe you, yeah kind of thing.
Caitlin Thompson: So where is this coming from Ukraine? Or is this about your mental state? Or is this about something else?
Rennae Stubbs: Or and again, what the Ukrainian players are going through, and believe I cannot even fathom what they're going through. What Svitolina has been able to do over the last couple of years and highlighting Ukraine talking about all the time, but going out there and winning for her country like that, to me is incredible, and she talks about it openly all the time. Now, why isn't she saying or standing up and saying I feel the same way. It feels a little bit unusual and a little bit it doesn't feel like you would think that all the Ukrainian players would be more supportive of this situation.
Caitlin Thompson: It is odd that and sort of maybe indicative of what's motivating this to your point that the most dramatic, the most sort of uh possessing of other stuff that's going on player. I mean, to me, it's hard not to draw some comparisons between this and the PTPA, which is like, hey, have you know, in the case of the PTPA law, so it's like, hey, have the players gotten short tripted by the tournament with regards to prize money and like the scheduling and stuffing like this, Like, yeah, there's some valid points here, like has it been extremely hard for the Ukrainian players to you know, play even after the governing bodies not just you the WTA, but also you know, the slam countries and the international competitions like the BJK Cup and Davis Cup have stripped the Russian and Belrusian players of being able to play their own flag. Ye, Like, you know, nobody's playing the Russian or Belarusian anthems. Like, but I agree, Like there's you know, it's shitty. But it's kind of like, hey, is this the format? What there is a lawsuit doing? What is the point of this?
Rennae Stubbs: And you can't single out she singled out a couple of particular tennis players.
Caitlin Thompson: Steve Simon is named in this suit. Some of the Russian players specifically are named in this suit. And it's just kind of like it's the same thing to me with the PTPA, which is like, hey, you guys, there might be some validity here, but like, why didn't you go and get some other support from other people? So this feels like it's more of a player movement. Similarly, if it was all the Ukrainian players, men and women, you'd kind of be like, oh, this seems like it's a systematic issue as opposed to an individual grievance. Yeah, And I think that's kind of what it boils down to it to me, yeah, and I mean it feels a little bit more individual grievance than it does maybe systematic problem that should be dissolved through the court of law.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, I mean what I'm going to enjoy seeing is Svitolina playing against Daria Kasatkina and getting to shake her hand now because she she's Australia, and that is indicative of Daria Kasatkina, who clearly has spoken up against you know, the laws in Russia and the government feels a little bit. But you know, some of these Russian players probably do feel very anti war and but you but also at the same time, it's an independent contracting sport. They've made stipulations that clearly you can't come in with a Russian flag and all that sort of stuff. But these are individuals, and yeah, you can have a word to them. And look, I just think I just think it's it's a shame. I feel sorry for her because clearly she's going through something and this is to spend the money she's going to have to spend to fight a lawsuit. It's crazy. I don't think she's going to even remotely come close to winning, But you know, I feel sorry for Portia the new WTA CEO, because she's coming a serious shit between Rybakina in her and now this situation. It's just like, oh my god.
Caitlin Thompson: Well let's let's end the segment. Well, we're talking about Ukrainian players to give a big shout out to a Elina Svitolina who won the title in Ruin against a very exciting young player in Olga Danilovich, who I think like she's always been a hard hitter and she's somebody who I think is like kind of exciting to watch because she's kind of a dynamic player. But she's getting better, she's getting closer, she's maturing. But Elina's Svitolina, you know, at mid thirties, is still winning titles and getting to give victory speeches and shout out her beloved husband who we all love Gael Monfils in a final, like that's awesome. That's a great outcome.
Rennae Stubbs: No, she's so awesome, And it's just.
Caitlin Thompson: Like another fun indicator of like tennis is being played all over the world and all sorts of interesting people places with great and interesting outcomes simultaneously. You know, Like yesterday I was trying to watch the finals and they were all on at the same time, and I was like, Ah, which one of these are?
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah? What am I doing? Only forty two ten TVs? You need to be that person going into a kind of a good problem. Now we've got a good bar across the street from me now called Thirty Love.
Caitlin Thompson: Let's go check it out.
Rennae Stubbs: We should go check it out. Apparently they've got some booths. We'll check that out. But anyway, we do want to give a shout out to the teams that made the BJK Cup finals. It's going to be in Shenzhen in September after the US Open, which is playing. Frankly, I think is better. I think it's a better time to have it right after the US seven November instead of November, because everyone is absolutely tapped and after the US Open. I've you know how I feel about this. I'm always like, let's just get rid of tournaments after the US Open, like the US Open.
Caitlin Thompson: You and Serena Williams agree about that one.
Rennae Stubbs: One hundred percent It should be the penultimate event, and then it should be this is the way I would do it, the WTA fFinals and then Billie Jean King Cup, like do it big time, you know, and have the home and away ties.
Caitlin Thompson: They should have it at the same time at the same venue tennis festival.
Rennae Stubbs: That certainly could be possible. That certainly could be possible.
Caitlin Thompson: Certainly, it's like they do NCAA's not for basketball an certainly because it's only team, but like tennis sort of culminates like the team and the individual competition are like pretty condensed.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, that could be an idea.
Caitlin Thompson: I mean a lot of times it's the same players.
Rennae Stubbs: There's too many tournaments. There's too many they play too late, and the WTA schedule finishes super late, as as does the ATP and then you have the Davis Cup and the BJK Cup are at the end, and it's just like, oh my god, everyone's like I need to have a holiday because I got to be back in Australia in three weeks. So it's just like, you know, anyway, So the teams that qualified were a Great Britain, Japan, Kazakhstan, Spain, Ukraine, so congrats to them. Can't be cool if they want it. Actually, USA, Italy because they are the defending champions, and of course the host nation is China, so they are in there as well. So there's some great there's gonna be some great matchups there. Unfortunately, the Old Aussie's lost to Kazakhstan in Australia because Rybakina went down there and played, so that was a big help for them. And so yeah, so some great teams going to be in the girl and I do really.
Caitlin Thompson: Like BJK Cup. I've never been to a single match. I have been to Shenzen. I've been to Shenzen as well.
Rennae Stubbs: You lived in China, so good to see that. Obviously, we want to see the support there. And so the money for Billie Jean King Cup is so big, Like I'm really happy for them. And of course I'm not going to bitch about this because Billy won like two thousand dollars when she won Wimbledon singles. But they're winning millions of dollars. It's crazy how much money they're winning at Bella Jean Kin Cup. Like the team is making so much money and so good. You know how I feel like about But god damn, I played twenty two years. I didn't get that prize money. So all these players should be out there busting their ass for their country because there's huge money on the line there.
Caitlin Thompson: But anyway, anything that we're looking forward to, I'm going to look forward to watching Madrid, which is a Masters 1000, and I'm going to use this opportunity to once again call for the cowards who run it to bring back the blue clay.
Rennae Stubbs: No, it's too slippery. It was terrible. It was a beauty. I know it looked good, but it's one person. I do want to see how she's going to go over the next couple of weeks. Is Coca Gauff as well, just kind of lost away a lot this year losing to Paolini.
Caitlin Thompson: Are we going to add her to the Worry Index?
Rennae Stubbs: I'm I'm adding her to the worry index a little bit, just because the serve and forehand again broke down against Paolini. So it was fun to see Paolini yeah, it was very way fund of your back. She's got some serious points finals Paris and finals and Wimbledon. She has a new coach in her coaching box, Mark Lopez, Yeah, yeah, I was a little bit surprised there. Coca got up in the first set and then lost her serve and then again at four or five in the first set down love fifteen. No big deal, right, it's four five love fifteen, No big deal. Double fault, double fault yep to go Love forty and then missus a easy back end white by mile and I was like, what the hell is that? So, you know, technically pressure mental. As soon as the pressure really gets on her, the double faults, and that should not be happening indoors, and it should definitely not be happening on clay because on clay you can get away with hitting an average serve because you can run the ball down better. So those things are a little bit of a concern. And you know, the service motion, she gets on the front foot too early. Oh god, I could go on forever about it, but I won't. There is a con and yeah, there's there is a concern. I would like to see her and Iga playing against each other at the French at some point and maybe quarters or Semis and see who can battle heir their brain plaque away, the battle of the brain plaque.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.
Rennae Stubbs: But but anyway, all right, guys, it's been a great couple of weeks.
Caitlin Thompson: Spring is really here. I'm excited about the just preponderance of tournaments. It's still cold here, although we had a couple of nice days. I'm really excited about Spring coming back. I'm excited Rune, as you said, ascending back up into the injuries. Okay, yeah, are nursing. I'm going to give a shout out to Tsitsipas because I love him. Silly backhand and it's silly whole. She's silly backhand. He's got beautiful back He's going to be Slice needs to work. Sabalenka is still out there being crazy.
Rennae Stubbs: Oh one last call out.
Caitlin Thompson: Nike justifiably gets a lot of shit on this podcast because they've basically ignored tennis for what, Like Kim Kardashian like get out here. But the Lilac Springtime Easter basket color that Sablenka and Carlos Alcaraz played in over the weekend, It looks so good on that red clay Do you love it?
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah? That looks great. I will say I really like New Balances looks on Coco.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, she's they don't kill us, they don't mess with, they don't miss And also I think on the men's side, Tommy part they don't mess with him either. Yeah, they well, I mean both of them are beautiful attraction, which a great parties and the whole thing. But the god they're succeed with their kids. I think they both almost always look phenomenal and even if they don't look their best, they look great. You know which I think we should all be so lucky is to walk out on to the court with a great kit shout look good play.
Rennae Stubbs: Because you know, if you don't look good, you can still play well. There are some players that do that really well, they will remain nameless. Thanks. Thanks for joining us, everybody. We'll see you next week.
Caitlin Thompson: Bye.
