Rennae Stubbs: One, two, one two. Okay, Hi everyone, welcome to the Rennae Stubbs Tennis Podcast. We are in freezing, cold, rainy, miserable spring in New York right now, Hi, Caitlin.
Caitlin Thompson: This is why I don't recognize spring as a season.
Rennae Stubbs: Because it's the only thing it's springing is your depression.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, it's a betrayal. Every year you get one seventy degree day, the one seventy degree day.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah.
Caitlin Thompson: Last week I played tennis outside, rode my bike around, wore the cutest tennis outfit. I was like, finally I'm back, baby.
Rennae Stubbs: And then.
Rennae Stubbs: The one thing I will say about the spring that I really like, yes, clay court season on my TV.
Rennae Stubbs: I know you love it. Listen. I love watching clay court tennis as well. You know. The great thing about tennis in general is like, you know, when you play basketball or soccer or whatever, you know, do you pick one of the great sports of the world. And let's say soccer is one of the if not the biggest, right, biggest playing on the same thing, right, the only difference is AstroTurf to grass. Tennis is literally played on multiple surfaces. Cool, So to be great, you have to be great flexible. You've got to be able to slide. You've got to be able to be patient. On clay, you have to be able to be methodic. Methodical on hardcourt, you've got to be a little bit more explosive. Your body takes a bit more of a beating. On grass, you've got to be sort of selective when you come to the net or being aggressive, or you can't be patient, you have to be aggressive. Like every single surface lends itself to a different way of playing.
Caitlin Thompson: I like it so much because I like the different stories that it gives us, not only in terms of which players surge and which players sort of recede from the main conversation, because as you noted, the best players are at the front of the line on all this, sir, because they've figured out how to do everything in the toolkit that is required of it's great, but for me, I just really like the various stories. This clay is a little slippier than that clay, which we'll get into because we were just watching some Charleston highlights and as you noted, the clay of Charleston, which is made with a mined clay from nearby South Carolina is slipperier than like, sort of the sticky, muddier red clay, right, And I'm willing to bet I have not played it on red clay in Houston, but I'm willing to bet that their clay is a little different than what you would find in.
Rennae Stubbs: Europe MonteCarlo. Yes, very different.
Caitlin Thompson: The tournament we were just watching in Romania, or the one I spent a lot of time watching, which was Marrakesh.
Rennae Stubbs: You love Marrakesh.
Caitlin Thompson: I was just really I just really like the idea of looking at something beautiful and sunny, especially on a day like two day, when it is forty degrees and rainy.
Rennae Stubbs: I thought that would actually put you more into a depression.
Caitlin Thompson: No, I just am projecting that I'm there to go.
Rennae Stubbs: Wow, look at me. I could be there and not here. So let's get into some of the results. We got to talk about. Jessica Pegula jpeg. Hey clay court specialists. Look at her.
Caitlin Thompson: I'm so impressed not only with her title run in Charleston and the difficult draw she had to get there, but also she just got to the finals of Miami. Yeah yeah, and the two for is tough. I mean Daniel Collins did it last year when she won both tournaments. Yeah, Miami, JPEG fell a little short against Aryna Sabalenka. No, no, no, you know, no small thing, Sabalenka is buy and away the best player in the world right now. But to get a final in Miami and then to win against a pretty incredible field in Charleston was awesome to see.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think it's funny when I did see that Jess was going and playing in Charleston, and she always is going to because she loves it there and a lot of players, and I can tell you it is truly one of the best tournaments to play form a players perspective. They take care of you, you know, a Bob and eleanor and the team there in Charleston really take care of their players so well. They're always giving little gifts. And the hotel's beautiful. Charleston's great. It's one of my favorite cities in the in the country, so it's it really is a great place to go to. The only thing that sometimes can get you there is the weather. But they had good weather, so that was always a good thing. But you know what for me, it's it's to show up to a tournament that you have told you're going to go to, when you've gotten to a final, like Danielle Collins did the previous year. Like that's testament to Jessica as well to like turn up and not only turn up, but actually play such good tennis. I mean, beating Danielle Collins in the quarterfinals, defending champion, and then you know, to see her win against in a final. Yeah, it was a good match. Kennan really should have taken it into the third set. It would have been interesting to see how they both reacted in the third Very different circumstances when you're playing for a title with one one set up on the line. But you know, jess came back from being down five to two, and that was a little bit surprising that Sophia Kenin sort of get the job done to get into her third set. But just you know, a really really great tournament for American tennis as well Amanda Annisimova. Of course we know what happened there with her having to pull out against Kenin. That was a bummer because I kind of wanted to see that match. I wanted to see those two go out.
Caitlin Thompson: Actually, yeah, those two peak performance. Also hip injury is no bueno, Yeah, no point we pulled out of during the first set.
Rennae Stubbs: We need Sophia Kenin sorry, we need Amanda Anissimova to stay healthy. Yeah, I mean that's been her big issue.
Caitlin Thompson: Big issue.
Rennae Stubbs: Obviously, she took a lot of time away from tennis for her mental health, just to sort of reevaluate her her life and what she want to do and tennis. And you know, we forget about Amanda Anissimova, who lost her father not that long ago, you know, probably about five years ago now, but you know, he was a tremendous he was her coach. So, you know, battling back from getting away from the sport now now having to deal with these injuries, that's just it's not great. I mean, clearly she played a great Miami, but then you know, I ran into a sleep deprived to person the next day herself. So but but really really great to see all these American players doing really, really well.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, which actually gives us a nice segue into Houston, which had an all American Semis lineup, which was you know, clay is not typically the even if it's on you know, sort of home soil, no pun intended, is not typically something you see Americans, especially the men, succeed on. But I have to say, you know, Tommy Paul, Francis Tiafoe, Jenson Brooksby, grants to Jenson Brooksby and Brandon Nakashima making the semifinals of Houston on red clay was really really cool to see and I think really exciting for a lot of people who, you know, maybe tune out a little bit if they're fans of American men's tennis during this time of the year. Okay, well maybe not. Maybe there's a reason to set up and pay attention.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, you know, Francis has played while there in the past clearly, and he certainly can play on clay. He can move on clay. A lot of how do people do well on clay and why don't they and why some do, etc. Etc. Look a lot of it has to do with movement, how you can slide on clay, how you can slide in and out of shots. You see some people play on clay, whether it be green clay or red clay, and they look like they're sort of running on ice, and they're just like, well, whoa, whoa whoa, whoa, you know, instead of like sliding into the shot, being able to hit the shot and then get back immediately after that. And I always said to people, whether I was coaching or playing, I was like, if you see somebody that can't slide to the ball, just hit drop shots all day long. So that's just a little tip for everybody out there that plays on green clay, especially in America or on clay in general. If you see somebody not being able to slide, they cannot you hit angles, so they're running off the court and then they have to take four steps after the shot to get back, or you hit drop shots. I love hitting it.
Caitlin Thompson: I love sliding.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, it's the one thing I could do really well on play. It's like it's slide for days.
Caitlin Thompson: It's really really fun. As a matter of fact, my favorite tennis court in New York City is red clay, and you can slide decently well. They've maintained it really well. It's beautiful and you know, but yes, you're right, where.
Rennae Stubbs: Is that the ninety six street courts up on Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course we're.
Caitlin Thompson: It's a little bit tucked away and out of and out of I say it so yeah, I thought the tragedy of Tommy Paul, Oh my god, up the third set on Jenson Brooksby in the semi finals, serving for the match at five four.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, let's go back a little bit because Jensen was actually up in that set for one good point, right, So you could arguably say, well, Jensen Brooksby should have won six, one, six and the third earlier, but he didn't because clearly he wasn't expected to beat Tommy. And then Tommy comes back and six five up in the third and you're like, oh, of course this is how it's going to end. He's going to serve it out, doesn't serve it out, Oh no, no, no, ok, god, we're going in a tide break, okay, match point, and then he loses that match point. It's kind of like, oh my god. It was a long day. There was a lot of rain there. They had to you know, they went from day to night playing that match. But Jenson Brooksby going not only and beating Tommy Paul, but then going and beating Francis Tiafoe again. He was up quite large in the first set. It looked like Francis was going to come back, and then he ends up serving the setout and then winning the match. But I got to give the kid a lot of credit. This is somebody who was suspended because he missed his drug tests and not only that in that time, and a lot of that's an unfortunate thing. Yes, he has to be better at obviously being at the places he's supposed to be for his drug tests, but you know, look, I had to miss drug tests as well myself one time, and if I had missed another one just because I forgot, I mean I was very diligent after getting the second missed where I was supposed to be drug test, So he should have been a little bit better with all that sort of stuff. But having said that, you know, it's really great to see him back and playing so well, Like you know, he was playing so well when he got that suspension, and and to come back and do what he did and win this tournament. That's that's credit to young man who also came out and told everyone not only that he was on the spectrum, that he had autism, and it's like wow, to see him doing this is really amazing.
Caitlin Thompson: I think it's it for me humanized him a lot and made what beforehand I didn't really understand and behavior maybe some sportsmanship issues. It made a little bit more contextualized for me where I was like, oh, I see he's neurodivergent. That's actually really helpful to be able to understand that. You know, his on court behavior doesn't necessarily look like deliberately Yeah, it doesn't feel like maybe he's being deliberately you know, unsporting. So I feel like, yeah, no, you're right. And again it's a testament to like having some transparency and vulnerability to talk about something. But also then it allows us to celebrate him and be like, oh wow, in spite of being neurodivergent, it is something that he has had to overcome, and now it makes it a little easier to root for this guy. Yeah, you know, because like with all these professional athletes, you know, the tennis is elite. You know, obviously day in and day out, you know, people have their ups and downs. But I think in general, if there's a player who can let us in on something like that, it becomes a little bit more you know, it becomes sort of like the rich tapestry of the tennis ecosystem as opposed to like, oh I don't like this guy yeah.
Caitlin Thompson: I mean, look, Madison Key is talking about going to therapy and not just sports therapy, actually going to therapy to figure out why it was that she wasn't loving and had a good relationship with tennis, and her being able to work on that and figure that out made it made her understand how her feelings were affecting her on the court. And that's that's what we're talking about. When players are a little bit more open about how they feel and why they do the things they do, that's a great thing. So I think Jensen has opened up a lot of I have to say, I think it's a lot of windows to a lot and for a lot of kids out.
Caitlin Thompson: There, I hope, So I hope we continue. Somebody else who we should celebrate on this podcast, who was also playing in Charleston and who's been very open about, you know, so the direction her life has taken and so much so that she's created an incredibly entertaining and fun vlag out of it. Is Daria Kasatikina, who is your new country woman.
Rennae Stubbs: Yes this, I have to say, I was in Indian Wells and there's a man that works for Tennis Australia quite senior up in tennis Australia was I saw him talking to John Morris and who is Daria Kasatkina's agent? And they were having a very you know, intimate conversation and I was like, what's going on over there? And then I was like, wait a second, is she like talking and thinking about becoming Australian? Sorry?
Caitlin Thompson: Did you just solve a case detective?
Rennae Stubbs: Yes? Life, I swear my life and Daria, we'll prove it because I saw her a couple of minutes later and I said to her, were recruiting you, We're recruiting you, and she goes maybe, and then sure enough what it was like a week after Indian wells, Yeah, it gets announced and I was like, oh my god, I was right.
Caitlin Thompson: But a classic so great obviously for anybody who does not know or not does not listen to this podcast area because how can I Russian origin? Yes, openly gay, yes, and in a relationship with her girlfriend and they do have vlog and she's you know, I think one of the tour's most delightful players. She's fun to watch, She's got a lot of tools, she's obviously a great athlete, and I think she's a fan favorite for a lot of reasons, you know, being gay, in Vladimir Putin's Russia well and speaking up about it. Bad news. She has spoken up about it and being you know, very very overtly political, you know, but this is one of the countries that has like outlawed homosexuality.
Rennae Stubbs: G'day mate. So of course I texted her immediately when I saw it, and I said I knew it. And by the way, that yeah, so look, Daria Saville, Daria Gavrilova former Gavrilova, is one of Daria's best friends. So I can imagine the conversation has been had by them over the months. I haven't spoken to Dasha about it, but I would imagine that they had talked quite extensively about living in Australia, about moving to Australia.
Caitlin Thompson: And how old was she? Quite young, she was sort of converted, I guess from Russia.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, I believe in her early twenties. But she I'd have to think about it. But look, she's she's been a part of the Australian tapestry of tennis for so long now, I would say a decade, and of course married her husband, Luke Saville, who's in Australia. He's an Australian tennis player, just retired and so look they live in Melbourne. They you know, Dasha Gavrilova is or Saville is very Australian, represents Australia in the Olympics and fed Cup and you know, her Australian accent is pretty good now, you know. So it's nice to see this from a standpoint.
Caitlin Thompson: From an international competition standpoint. You know, Australia just gained another top twenty player.
Rennae Stubbs: Hey, we'll take it. I think there's still a conversation if she can represent Australia and when, But it'll be really wonderful to see her out there, you know. So we've recruited somebody good players Ajla Tomjlanovitch, Yeah, Darius Saville of course. Now Kasatkina, so hey, way to go tennis Australia.
Caitlin Thompson: While we're talking about Daria Saville I sort of flagged something that I thought was really interesting. Late last week she went out on social media to talk about how disappointed she found it that brands were keen to sponsor the wives and girlfriends of tennis players sort of influencers in the tennis space. You would say keen to be involved in the tennis world, just not in the tennis world way that you would hope, well, she would certainly hope that the brands would I think pay female athletes instead of paying wives and girlfriends. And the reaction to this has been, you know, sort of predictably mixed. I'm curious as to your reaction to it, because, yes, players on the pro tour, especially women who are maybe not necessarily in the top twenty all of those goes for men too, don't often enjoy the preponderance of brand deals. And we have seen in the last couple of years, especially an uptick in brands, and by brands, I mean every brandy, brands, liquor brands, media brands, creating a lot of content with influencers, some of whom are sort of notable wives and girlfriends, and we can talk about who they are and you know, how they operate in the ecosystem. But this is relatively new to tennis. I think it's probably been in other sports for a long time. And I mean, yes, Daria was very keen to sort of say, hey, I talked to some of my friends who are influencers and I asked them if this would be appropriate for me to talk about and they said yes. So yeah, I wonder she didn't name any names, so it sounded less of a personal attack and more of just like a plead to brands to work with female athletes.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, listen, this is a double edged sword right in a lot of ways, because clearly some of the wives, in particular Morgan…
Caitlin Thompson: Morgan's not a wife, and Ayan Bloomfield is dating Frances Tiafoe and also was a Division one tennis player at UCLA. Yes, and Morgan Riddle has probably gotten the most attention in the the sort of wives and girlfriends influencer space. She is dating Taylor Fritz. Yeah. There's another one, Paige Lorenze, who is dating Temmy Paul, who's got her own brand. Yeah, so there's a there's a handful here.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah. So so I think, first of all, I want to say, look the fact that those particular girlfriends of those particular tennis players have gotten a lot of brands. Look there, the three of them are beautiful, Let's just put it out there, straight up, gorgeous women. They have made an effort themselves to do the vlogs, do the instagrams, meet the right people, talk to brands themselves. They're putting themselves out there and they're doing the work, all right, So they're not brands. Aren't just popping in and saying, hey, guys, we see that you're the girlfriend of would you do this now? Yeah? Sure, they're getting exposure because they're on television, right, So when Francis Tiafoe is playing the US Open, or Tommy Paul or Taylor Fitz, the wives are getting shown. The girlfriends are getting shown on television a lot. Okay, so they're getting their own They're getting attention because of their boyfriends, for sure, but they have to put in the work themselves, and both of them and all of those women in particular, and any other influencer. You have to put in the work. It's not like you just put on the camera and be like blah blah blah. They do the dress. I mean, I saw a Yan yesterday. She'd put on this dress and she's talking about this, and she's talking about her skincare, and people follow them. And therefore, if you have a following, it's like when you have the demand, you will get brands and so that. So if you, as a tennis player, are gonna complain about it or agree with Dasha Savile, you have to put in the work as well. You have to get dressed up, you have to you know. One of the things that Dasha was saying, I guess a sweaty, sporty woman is not going to get as much love as a beautiful woman who's putting on hair and makeup and a great outfit. Okay, yes, you know, supply and demand. I don't know. I feel like both can be right in the situation. That's how I feel about it.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I would sort of add to me. The thing that I really admire about the sort of conversation no, the wives and girlfriends is that they've figured out as stories. I mean, Morgan Riddle by far as the biggest one, and she is by far the best storyteller. Yeah, she's crafting not only sort of a persona, but also content that these brands want. And so, yes, does it hurt that these these folks are, you know, in full hair and makeup as you mentioned earlier, Obviously they're very attractive and there are you know, there are some realities of the market that.
Rennae Stubbs: Uh, you know, sadly contour to that.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, the contour to that, sure, But I also want to call out, like the tremendous amount of work and storytelling. And I think when we've seen athletes tell stories, especially if it's sort of a continued effort as part of an ongoing you know, persona or a performance that I think is additive to their tennis. You know, we just praise Daria Kasatakina for having a great vlog, but she does regularly where she interviews other players. You know, Daria Kasatkina is never going to be the spokesperson for Chanel or Dior, that's not her brand and that's certainly not something she seems interested in. But her relatability and her humor and her ability to sort of be a locker room favorite and get other players to interview like indicates to me that the following she has is based on work and effort and you know, something really authentic. And you know, similarly, when we see Danielle Collins sort of embrace her silliness and kind of you know, outside personality, when we've seen Jess Pegula ride the subway to you know, the US Open instead of taking a helicopter, not that she was going to, but you get my point. Like when players lean in a little bit, and it's kind of, you know, I think similar to the Jenson Brooksby conversation we were just having, which is the more players and I get your point, it is a double edged sword, but the more players sort of embrace the story, the transparency, the vulnerability, the idea that they are, you know, human beings who have stories to tell and can tell them, I think the easier this will be.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, I mean, look, tennis players have a job. They get up in the morning, they go train, they work out, then they go to physio, then they do all of that sort of stuff. And what's exciting about that till brand you know what? I mean to show that, Okay, they're going to practice for two days. Whereas you know, you know, a wag can sort of like say, hi, guys, I'm here at the thing. Here's my product placement, and here's what we do, and here's the makeup I wear, and here's the mascot or I wear. And this doesn't run even when I'm watching my boyfriend play tennis, and blah blah blah. I mean there's just waste to you hit a certain demographic, they go, oh, I relate to that, right, Whereas do you hit a certain demographic when you're like, oh my god, I just went to the gym for two hours, I went to physio. Here in my sweat marks, it's like, do you who relates to that? Yeah, there's plenty of people that kind of relate to that, So how do you embrace that? I want to call out I think the wt A trying in their right to actually help along these lines a little bit more. When they have that influencer lunch and dinners and things like that, they're inviting that. They're inviting the influencers in, but then they're they're having some of the players do a lot of the vlogs, whether it be Darry Gavelova, Savil or not. So they're trying, they're trying to integrate them in, but the influencers, do you know how to do it better?
Caitlin Thompson: Also, the influencers come and go. I mean that's the other thing is that influencer marketing generally has you know, sort of ebbed and flowed. I don't know that it's going to be here forever. If you're on the pro tour and making a living as a pro tennis player, Like.
Rennae Stubbs: That's your main job and you can make a lot of money, is this Yes, Yeah, you can make a lot of money winning tennis matches, So that becomes way more important than it does to maybe show what hairspray you're using that day. That said, I would like to use this big platform that we have to make a call to Garbiñe Muguruza's husband, who is extremely attractive and somebody we do not see enough on camera. I see Garbiña all the time, who's now an ambassador for tennis, but.
Rennae Stubbs: She's not playing anymore.
Caitlin Thompson: I'm just saying I want more men, I want more boyfriends, I want BAGs in my life.
Rennae Stubbs: I would have heard that. I just I want more men.
Caitlin Thompson: I want to see more dudes in the stands. And what are they what's their fit for the day, what are they wearing, what's their look?
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, you're not going to see that, you know, gonna see Jessie Pegula's husband getting dressed up. That's a great idea.
Caitlin Thompson: Jessica Pegula, if you're listening to this, I want to see Taylor what is he wearing?
Rennae Stubbs: It's not happening. I mean maybe probably some Gap pants.
Caitlin Thompson: He's probably wearing some golf pants and a sweatproof shirt. But I'm saying, if we call him out, then maybe he can step it up.
Rennae Stubbs: Taylor, that's ever gonna happen. Taylor. No, Taylor, please Taylor, just be yourself.
Caitlin Thompson: I think it's a great idea. No, So, I think this is why not why not push for change? You're always the one telling me nothing everything is impossible. Remember when the French Open just decided to move to October and didn't consult with anybody. You like, we're living in the ages?
Rennae Stubbs: Is it in the October anymore for one year? Because it was a pandemic?
Caitlin Thompson: Listen, but I'm just saying nothing is nothing is real.
Rennae Stubbs: You want Australia to move to South America. I get it. Let's like not get any of the more controversial with these takes.
Caitlin Thompson: I don't think he's wanting to see more husbands and boyfriends is a controversial take.
Rennae Stubbs: Okay, that's fine.
Caitlin Thompson: Whatever on the sidelines is particularly controversial. I think a lot of listeners would agree with that.
Rennae Stubbs: You can have whatever you want. Speaking of good looking men, now that you want more men, can we talk about Rublev and Marat Safin.
Caitlin Thompson: Marat Safin largely widely considered to be the one of the best looking men who'd ever played tennis one Grand Slam. One story that Darren k Hill told on this podcast during the first season was that he turned down an opportunity to coach Merrett Saffin, instead choosing to coach under Agassi because DarrenCahill's wife was too enthusiastic about him taking the Marrat Safin coaching job.
Rennae Stubbs: May I say, a much better financial decision because Marrett not really the guy that you're going to hope is going to turn up for the day. But I think this is kind of an interesting matchup because I think people that were nuts and crazy on tennis court, which Safin was, and I think they actually make great coaches. And I'll tell you why. I'd love to know. I think I was a little nuts on the court at times as well myself. And I think you just get it right. I think you get it, you understand what someone's going through. Now, if you're like a Chris Evertt, I think that Chris would have a hard time coaching somebody who's a little bit nuts because you'd be like, I don't understand how why you would act quick this yes, you know, or Steffie Graff would be like, what are you doing? Act look like an you know, Whereas somebody who can relate a little bit to the crazy and to the emotional ups and downs on the court actually does make a good coach because they understand and they feel for you. Like he can relate, he can relate to don't fuck this up. Yes, it's okay to get upset from time to time, but you're going to look back in ten years and like really regret this. And so it'll be interesting to see how Marat Safin can can sort of get into the head of rube Lev a little bit, Not that anyone wants to be in Rublev's head, but to be able to go, look, man, I get it. You want to smash a racket, you want to take someone's head off, you want to rip a ball out of the stadium. You want to get upset, but in the end, that's not going to help you. And work on it in practice, and work on sort of joking about it a little bit. And like, I just think being relatable is really important as a coach. I think that Marat Safin is that is going to be that for.
Caitlin Thompson: I think I've convinced me that's a very good take, and I think you're right. They're definitely more able to relate and probably coach.
Rennae Stubbs: I think time will tell.
Caitlin Thompson: Let's talk about Coco, Let's talk about Cocoa Gauff. Yeah, the results haven't been happening on the court for her so far this year, but I love this move that she is starting her own agency backed by me that will sort of unify her brand deals, which by all accounts have been exemplary, especially what she's done with New Balance to offer a lower price shoe for people who maybe find the one hundred and thirty dollars price point a little inaccessible. Obviously, her off court activism and her playing all sort of into one unit that is going to be led by her. I think this is really cool. She was priorly with Team 8, which represented among others, Alex Zverev for a time, Gregor Dimitrov for a time. They're losing people left and right, obviously. Roger Federer was a founder of the agency along with his former WME agent Tony Godsick, who is also married to Mary Joe Fernandez, So you know, there's a good reason to think that Roger Federer will forever be involved in that agency. That said, I don't know that they represent anybody at the moment of note, because losing Coco is a pretty big deal.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, it is a big deal, and you sort of wonder how and how it came about in a lot of ways, like what was his discussion had with Team eight that wasn't or more along the eyes, you wonder what the discussion was with WME that wasn't being a Team 8. Yeah, that to me is the one that's kind of interesting because you go up and you say I want to do this, and I want to do this, and I want to do this, and they go, well, that's not really our jam.
Caitlin Thompson: I think, honestly, it might be something. I mean, now we're just totally speculating, but I do think that speculatoion, we love it. I do think that one of the things that makes Cocos so unique is her off court advocacy. She is reliably a citizen of the world and she's engaged politically.
Rennae Stubbs: Do you think that has something to do with it?
Caitlin Thompson: I do, and I actually think Roger Fededer is famously famously apolitical and of course, he's Swiss.
Rennae Stubbs: He's Swiss—we said at the same time, but you know.
Caitlin Thompson: He's famously apolitical at a time when I would argue sports could use some leadership. And you know, Tony Godsick, I don't want to paint paint a picture. I don't know his politics. Living in Ohio certainly is a choice, but yeah, I do wonder if that's just not the Team 8 brand to get involved in the world and sort of see the larger conversation.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, because you know, when you look, the problem is you can't compare anyone to Roger because Roger Federer is truly a worldwide brand. It is everybody knows him. You know. The collaboration with On has been incredibly successful, There's no question about that. I would argue that the collaboration with Uniqlo is not a great one. I don't see people going I'm running into you know, On, sorry, into into there and saying, yeah, I want those I want that shirt because Roger Federer was wearing it, or you know, Uniqlo is not is not really a brand that I see people running to because of Roger Federer. Roger Federer is upper class. He is Swiss, he is cleanly shaven, he has behaved his whole life. He's not that is On that makes sense, right, It's a Swiss company. It's it's it's very methodical in its way of it's bringing out even the growth of it has been very systematic, very very Swiss, I think Uniqlo is kind of like it's a cheap brand and it's a it's a great brand for people that want to buy t shirt that's fifteen dollars and not fifty five dollars, right, I.
Caitlin Thompson: Think what's the what the difference is? And you know, Roger Federer has endorsed everything under the sun.
Rennae Stubbs: You know what I mean, even he's he's endorsed chocolate.
Caitlin Thompson: He's endorsed in espresso machines, which are not actually particularly fancy. If you're actually a little high end coffee drinker, you're buying a you know, three thousand dollars Italian espresso machine. But I think Roger Fededer has been a brand, he's been a product. Yes, he sells Barilla pasta, which is also not particularly high end. I think it's less about selling him and more he had stock in on he was incentivized to pump the stock. Yep, because it got all this investment from parties, a lot of venture capital and a lot of private equity, on has been able to buy their way into a good amount of prominence. And they've done it, as you said, systematically, and that said those and you're not ugly AF.
Rennae Stubbs: You don't love the clothes, ugly AF. You don't love the clothes or the shoes. But from I have not worn the shoes, but from every that has won the shoes, they love the shoe. Sure, they love the shoe. So for like the suburban, Yeah, I can't poo poo on the shoe. And I don't have to say they have done a better job with the shoe, because they really have. They have broadened that that range.
Caitlin Thompson: Doing a collab with Loewe for a six hundred dollars is bad bad move. No, My point is not that it's good or bad. My point is that it's AstroTurf and it's bought and paid for with a lot of money, which is what Roger Federer's brand is. In contrast, getting back to Coco, which is the more germane conversation is that Coco is about, in my view, authenticity, Yes, and I agree there's a there's some subtext there that you could potentially read in again total speculation, but I think the authenticity that that Coco sort of is looking to embrace is hopefully going to be now empowered by the agency that is powering her brand, because one thing we need more of in tennis is actual leadership, actual outspokenness, and the idea of you know, it's not just a place to park a lot of money, it is, in fact a vehicle for the better men of the world.
Rennae Stubbs: World. It feels like she's trying to take ownership of her brand completely and sort of take it out of the hands of teammate and say, look, no, this is what I want, this is this is my thought process. And clearly they sat down with her and said, yep, yep, let's do it. Yep, yep, yep, We're on board with all of it. And look, Coco is arguably the biggest star in American sports. I mean when she won the US Open. I know this for fact. A couple of years ago, when ESPN Women's Summit was happening here in New York, they played a video, and you know, we're talking Mikaela Shiffrin to Katie Ladecki, to all the great American champions that have either won at the Olympics or had done something spectacular that year. And you know, everyone clapped when they announced Mikaela Shiffrin a big deal. She just broke the all time skiing World Cup record. Okay, clap yeah, and then another great clap yeah. And then they showed Coco winning the US Open, and the entire room went bonkers. Yeah, And that's when I went, oh, tennis transforms way more than I mean, it is massive compared to all these other sports that are a little bit more niche. Skiing is very niche, Swimming is very niche.
Caitlin Thompson: But I think even you know, compared to soccer and basketball players. I mean, we'll see, like the WNBA obviously has now minted yeah, probably a dozen superstars yes, with more on the way.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, there's no question about that. You know, we'll look at co co invested in the Unrivaled the event basketball event in Miami. So I think co coach is so big that her issue is going to be you gotta win, though at some point look at Naomi Osaka. She is being not dropped by Nike because she's clearly with Nike, but they are not pushing her stuff anymore. They are not you know, going out in the streets going yeah, Naomi Osaka.
Rennae Stubbs: Is Let's also be honest. Most of it was hideous.
Rennae Stubbs: Yes it was hideous, but that was That's what Naomi. That was her brand, that was Naomi's brand, that was Naomi's look. It was you know, that very sort of cultural feel blah blah blah. But the bottom line is Nike and not pushing that out there anymore.
Caitlin Thompson: Right, Yeah, I mean I think I once had a conversation with her team and they tried to to tell me that she was bigger than Lebron James, and I was like, sorry, Lebron James, who's won a whole bunch. Talk about worldwide, like Lebron James is the greatest basketball player of several generations.
Rennae Stubbs: I was going to say, don't say of all the time, I wouldn't.
Caitlin Thompson: My wife would murder me. Yeah, she also agrees that Michael Jordan Michael Jordan, but but speaking over brand, do you have to be the greatest of your of your generation at least I think to sort of command. Yeah, you know, and I would, frankly, and this is a little bit of an off topic, but I would run. I would love to see a lot of these sporting brands actually make non signature clothing lines. Like, I don't know that it's a good business proposition to throw your weight behind a celebrity.
Rennae Stubbs: Well, yeah, I mean, having said that, Caitlin, like Sabrina Ionescu, who is obviously one of the great women basketball players in the world, would you put her in the top five? No, I wouldn't. And I love Sabrina. She plays on my team, the Liberty. One of the pure shooters in the game, no question about that. There's not many that are better than her. But having said that, her shoe is the number two selling shoe in basketball.
Caitlin Thompson: Which is cool, men and women, men and men on the in the W in the.
Rennae Stubbs: NBA wear her shoe. Yeah that's how So they've done a great job at that.
Caitlin Thompson: And I give a lot of Where's Coco Shoes? Yeah, I think you're but I'm talking about the clothing. I think let's take a step back on what clothing. I think the brands clothing for collaption.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, yeah, celebrity.
Caitlin Thompson: We saw this get out of hand with Virgil Abloh and Serena Williams in the later years.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, but look at look at look at Naomi Sorry not that Naomi Coco. I mean, I think New Balance did such a good job of grabbing her. And I'll give teammate a lot of credit there. They saw the vision there that she could be one of one at New New Balance and they and they have, They've done it. They've done a really great job with that. And I am I thought, oh, when a Nike going to steal her? Like, at what point in Nike going to go we need this, we need this tennis player, we need this, this young woman on our staff. Considering Serena's retiring, all these great Nike Roger's.
Caitlin Thompson: Got, it is sort of a miss that they don't have her. To be honest, yeah, I think I just all I'm calling for is not for them to stop signing really good athletes. Just please don't make really inaccessible one of like one outfit collaborations that then become unwearable by everyone else.
Rennae Stubbs: Or if you're going to do it, make sure it's wearable. But going back to Coco, she has to keep winning though. That's an important part for her.
Caitlin Thompson: Many other parting shots. As we wrapped this first season first episode of Click Word Season up, Ooh, I like this, me too. I like this.
Rennae Stubbs: No Monte Carlo is going on right now? Man, man, oh man, I tell you, wouldn't it be nice? It would have been so nice to have a tournament for the women in Monte Carlo. Big news yesterday from Ben Navarro is that he is making the five hundred equivalent money wise to the men's this is in Charleston. Yes, look, Ben Navarro. Credit One is a tremendous sponsor of women's sports. So I think that has a lot to do with Ben. I think he's clearly with his daughter Emma. So you know, for me, thanks to people like Ben Navarro, we have opportunities to highlight more women's sports. And so I just got back from Tampa from the women's final four down there, which was a huge success. Oh my god, Tampa has changed so much, dude, in the last six years. I couldn't believe it.
Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, Ben Navarro, I think obviously he now owns Cincinnati as well as Charleston. I would love to see him make the tournament in Cincinnati give equal pay to the men and the women, because that has been one of the laggards between the men and the women on one of pro tour's biggest stops.
Rennae Stubbs: I'll be safe to say if anyone's going to make it happen, it'll be Ben because that's just I think the influence that he has clearly in the game of tennis at the moment and also with his own company to make it right. So we'll see that. Yes, the clay court season has begun. Hopefully the sun will come out in New York at some point and we can get to play outside on clay. But thanks for joining me today, Caitlin. We've got a lot to go. French Open is around the corner. We'll see what happens here in Monte Carlo. Petko has left her She's in Europe.
Caitlin Thompson: Now. You don't blame her.
Rennae Stubbs: I don't blame her. Yeah, but there again, Germany has some average weather.
Caitlin Thompson: If I were an EU citizen, I would be parked at the Mediterranean right now playing tennis.
Rennae Stubbs: Yeah, me too. All right, all right, guys joining us. We'll see you next week. Bye bye,
